Two questions

[DMSpartan]

1) Does the rule book specifically state that the table should be notified that a substitute is replacing the foul shooter?

2) I've noticed a few teams using a new ball that has extra grooves for better handling. (I call it the "wavy" ball.) Has this ball been approved for competition by the VHSL?

 

[FBRef]

1) No. All that is required is that the sub reports to the table and gives his number. There's no requirement that he says who hs is going in for. At one time, he had to but there was no reason for it, as nothing is noted in the scorebook.

2) The ball is approved for NFHS use. There's no longer a limit to the number of panels the ball can have.

 

[DMSpartan]

It really doesn't have any extra panels - just some extra grooves for handling.

 

[gymrat10]

additional grooves mean more panels. These balls are not preferred by players though, believe me. Most like Wilson Evolution, Baden, or even the new Rock, all with the latest tacky material.

 

[FBRef]

Exactly. There's a panel between every two grooves. So you can't have more grooves without having more panels.

 

[DMSpartan]

Regret to disagree with you but I checked the ball out last night, and the ball still has the same number of panels. The "grooves" are between the panels.

 

[DMSpartan]

It would cause a lot less inadvertent horns from the scorer's table if anyone substituting for a free-throw shooter would declare that they are replacing the shooter. And I haven't had one player give the scorekeeper his number - I'm usually the one calling out the numbers of subs during timeouts and quarter changes.

 

[FBRef]

Originally posted by DMSpartan:
Regret to disagree with you but I checked the ball out last night, and the ball still has the same number of panels. The "grooves" are between the panels.

You stated yourself that there are extra grooves in the ball and you are correct. A PANEL is the area between two grooves. That inclues ALL of the grooves, not just the area between two black grooves. And all those grooves have a panel between them.

Originally posted by DMSpartan:
It would cause a lot less inadvertent horns from the scorer's table if anyone substituting for a free-throw shooter would declare that they are replacing the shooter. And I haven't had one player give the scorekeeper his number - I'm usually the one calling out the numbers of subs during timeouts and quarter changes.

First, there's no penalty is the sub doesn't tell the table his number. It's on the jersey.

As for inadvertent horns, I always tell the timer not to blow the horn for subs on FTs. Part of the trail official's responsibility is to be aware of subs waiting to enter. There shouldn't be a need for a horn.

 

[DMSpartan]

Sorry but again you're mistaken. The panel is the area between the seams. I looked at one of these balls and the "grooves" are actually superimposed over the seams.

1) No. All that is required is that the sub reports to the table and gives his number. There's no requirement that he says who hs is going in for. At one time, he had to but there was no reason for it, as nothing is noted in the scorebook.

First, YOU stated that a sub is required to give his number - not me. And I've always blown the horn for subs for FT-shooters and have had no complaints from any of the officials working my games.

This post was edited on 1/19 1:47 PM by DMSpartan

http://www.wilson.com/wilson/basketball/basketball

 

[gymrat10]

I know the ball your talking about and I can't believe it would be approved.
I prefer fewer horns as well, but sure as the first time you don't blow it for that sub, you'll end up with six on the floor and a conundrum. (Not the word some would use)

 

[FBRef]

The NFHS and the NCAA consider the area between the grooves as panels. They've even re-written the rules to reflect it. If you choose to call them something different, feel free.

Yes, as I said, subs are required to give their number. And again, there is no penalty if they don't.

As for the horn, you should do what you and the officials at your games are confortable with. If what you're doing works, great. But I don't have any issues with the horn and subs for the shooter because I don't allow a horn. Just an example of what works and avoids the problem you're having.

Thanks for the questions!
This post was edited on 1/19 3:04 PM by FBRef

 

[DMSpartan]

Not only that but I actually get some subs who are hesitant to enter the game if they don't hear the horn. I try not to "overdo" it but in talking to the refs in our area, most say they prefer the horn so they don't forget any subs and leave them sitting at the table.

 

[DMSpartan]

Why don't you allow a horn? Have you ever forgotten a substitute and left him/her sitting at the table while the game progresses? Seems as if you'd welcome a reminder that there's a sub waiting for his/her time on the floor.
This post was edited on 1/20 12:53 PM by DMSpartan

 

[FBRef]

You spoke of inadvertent horns that occur when a sub comes to the table for the shooter. That can only happen between FTs. Between FTs, I'm standing at the table, so no I don't need a horn for him. As for the horn in general, I have too many issues with the horn. The biggest of which is a sub running into the game before I beckon him. Too many kids respond to the horn and not the official and that creates a problem.

The only one I might miss is the sub who sneaks in behind me during the final attempt. In that case, the timer can blow the horn IF the sub is at the X when the ball goes through the basket.

But when a foul is being reported and between FTs, nope, don't need it.

 

[DMSpartan]

I've done games where I "laid off" the horn for subs. They took an extremely long time to come off the sidelines - so much so that the refs working the game came over and asked me to blow the horn.

And what's wrong with subs taking the floor before you beckon him? It shortens the time that everyone is standing there, and it keeps the game from bogging down. You stand at the table ALL the time? I thought the officials changed places on the floor from time to time. Afraid you're going to lose control?

 

[FBRef]

First off, there's no reason to take litte cheap shots at me. I'm here to answer questions, nothing more.

Second, I never said I was at the table all the time. I simply explained how my crew and our association as a whole handles bringing subs in between FTs.

Third, what's wrong with players taking the floor without being beckoned? They come in when they're not supposed to, that's what's wrong with it. I'm coming to the table to report a foul, the timer blows the horn and the subs come running in. Wrong. I report and then I bring the subs in, if we are not shooting a 2 or 3 shot foul. The official brings the subs into the game, not the timer.

And no, I have no fear of losing control.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[baller4Him]

I took it as him picking with you lightheartedly. Nothing like cheap shots. I don't know his intention though.

I also understood it as you being at the table at all times. Related to that how it is determined who is where for FT's? Regular rotation? Person calling foul at table, closest to basket under the basket, and other on wing opposite table? Just wondering.

I definitely understand about players listening to horn instead of officials beckoning them in. That's one thing I've gotten tired of among some players and teams. It seems young players aren't taught to wait for officials to motion them. I know I was taught to listen for the horn until an official explained to me that he was in control, not the horn.

 

[FBRef]

No official is at the table at all times. I simply answered first person, explaining what I do when I'm at the table.

Normally, the official calling the foul goes to the trail or center position on the table side. The official previously in that position switches.

 

[DMSpartan]

Like I said in a previous post, it's my immediate knowledge that, ONCE I get the players "ON THE HORN", they'll hardly "budge" off the sideline even if the official at the table waves them on the floor. But you're right - it is the referee who brings substitutes into the game - not the timer. Bu try telling that to the players!

And I don't take "cheap shots" at anyone! I've always cooperated with the officials who are doing the games at which I operate the clock. But the way I do my games seems to please the largest part of the crews who work games in the 'Doghouse. I'm certain I would do it your way if you ever came here.
This post was edited on 2/26 5:00 PM by DMSpartan
This post was edited on 2/26 5:00 PM by DMSpartan

 

[DMSpartan]

I would presume that players running onto the floor before being acknowledged by an official is a result of AAU basketball - as is teams or players wanting to shoot around before their game - even if another game is in progress! BTW, I consider halftime to be part of a game - even if no one is on the floor at the time.

 

[FBRef]

Originally posted by DMSpartan:
I would presume that players running onto the floor before being acknowledged by an official is a result of AAU basketball.

In all my years, I've never had a sub run onto the floor without being beckoned unless one thing happened- the horn was blown.

I've worked plenty of AAU basketball. The rules are no different. Subs are beckoned.

 

[DMSpartan]

Lighten up - you seem to be taking everything I'm saying as a personal attack on the way YOU officiate games. I'm quite certain you're a very competent official but not all of your brethren are. So you must be aware that some of them take "shortcuts" occasionally - and those "shortcuts" sometimes become accepted as the "NORM" - even though they shouldn't be.