VHSL committee proposes dropping from 6 classes to 4
CHARLOTTESVILLE, Va. — A VHSL ad hoc committee on Tuesday approved a recommendation that the league change its current structure from six classifications to four beginning with the 2023-24 school
4 classes...thoughts
- Thread starter Jeff M.
- Start date
No matter how they slice it, people cry. This is the first cycle that George Mason and Maggie Walker have been moved up to Class 3. So they are complaining that they will have to be playing the same teams they have been playing the last 20 years.
The Ad Hoc Committee gave their recommendations to the Alignment Committee. They will have public hearings before giving their recommendations to the Executive Committee. There is a long process before the 4-Class Option see the light of day.
No it's not.
400 and below - 1A
401-750 - 2A
751-1450 - 3A
1451 and above - 4A
Been saying this for years. If the VHSL doesn't do something to make 1A more sensible they're going to have a bunch of schools either drop football or go 8 man route in the very near future.
Is the problem that there just aren't enough small population schools, so that if you divide by 4ths, you would end up with some schools almost double their size in same division?
Oh it would be more than double in the 4ths scenario. It already is double for a lot of schools in the current system. If we go to 4ths it would be triple in far too many cases.
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Would 5 divisions instead of four make any more sense? I'm asking because i don't know. Could they reduce the disparity in size if 5 were used is what I am asking?
I think so - but that's just me.
💯 agree. I think 6 may be a little bit much in most sports, 4 not enough for football IMO. 5 seems right to me too.
I think so. Class 1 and 6 are probably the least competitive of any. There’s no parity, especially in football. 5 is just right.
I am honestly surprised it has made it as far as it has. I would imagine they would not want to give up the revenue of 6 championships, 6 class playoffs... especially in light of the revenues lost last year and this Spring/Summer.
If they do change, I like many feel 5 is the way to go.
If they do change, I like many feel 5 is the way to go.
4, or 5 classes may have their place in the future. Just not now.
I can not overstate how difficult the financial stress has been for the VHSL. Even if things get back to normal this fall, the lag time in income will continue to impact them well into 2022.
The added burden of having to alter everything about the Class divisions would just be another financial strain.
How many of you could take a pay cut of 33%? If the classes were reduced to 4 divisions, that is essentially what would happen. Looked at in the entirety the changes might not be quite that bad, but I would venture to say that the total annual income for the VHSL would be reduced by 20%.
I dare say that there are very few of us that could withstand a reduction of our income by 20%. And remember, this is not for just one year, but for each year in the future.
Like I said, reducing the number of classes has merit, but not now.
I can not overstate how difficult the financial stress has been for the VHSL. Even if things get back to normal this fall, the lag time in income will continue to impact them well into 2022.
The added burden of having to alter everything about the Class divisions would just be another financial strain.
How many of you could take a pay cut of 33%? If the classes were reduced to 4 divisions, that is essentially what would happen. Looked at in the entirety the changes might not be quite that bad, but I would venture to say that the total annual income for the VHSL would be reduced by 20%.
I dare say that there are very few of us that could withstand a reduction of our income by 20%. And remember, this is not for just one year, but for each year in the future.
Like I said, reducing the number of classes has merit, but not now.
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I may be wrong DP but I don't think they are thinking about right now. This is all preliminary.
You are correct, EP, it's very early in the game. And I've said this previously, I don't think the idea has much traction right now. With all of the other issues that the schools and the VHSL are dealing with, it would just add another unwanted distraction right now.
I hope for the sovereignty of the League, the idea will just stay on the back burner for a few years.
I've been wanting to give you a shout out. I appreciate all of the very informative post you share with the folks here on the forum. We thank you.
I hope for the sovereignty of the League, the idea will just stay on the back burner for a few years.
I've been wanting to give you a shout out. I appreciate all of the very informative post you share with the folks here on the forum. We thank you.
What is the solution to the financial problems of the VHSL? What could be done to help their situation so decisions could be made that reflect common sense and provide a more even playing field? Could the state of Virginia help out with some state money realizing that these sports are a huge part of the high school experience? Not full funding of VHSL of course but supplemental funds to take care of shortfalls. I'm thinking outside the box. Lottery money? A sports tax?
Man, I could see the backlash now if they did that. There is a whole bunch of people in the state that don't care a bit about sports. And probably just as many who couldn't afford an increase in taxes (especially something that would be viewed there as unnecessary).
And if the change is to 5, that would average out to around 10 schools each. And since money is being discussed here, how about the extra expense that it would undoubtedly with expanded area for regions (in some cases severe). And exactly how should appeals to change classifications be handled? If 3 request to move up, then shouldn't that mean 3 get to move down?
And all of this is being discussed as to even up the playing field. Well ANY lowering of class number would negatively effect the smaller schools per class by enrollment numbers, but if we the argument is competitive evening, then we are talking about this for at best a handful of programs, and usually only in a specific sport.
Throughout all classes, there has been no overwhelming team in Baseball, IC Norcom and Martinsville in Boys Basketball, a handful of Girls Basketball throughout the years, Cross Country has a few it looks like (in most of those cases both Boys and Girls), or even Football, we are basically talking about recently Riverheads and Highland Springs. Sure there are programs who are consistently good to great, but in almost all of the above cases in these sports, it has more to do with the program as a whole, the consistent talent in an area, or the great coaching they receive.
Just because it's what I am familiar with, I have seen multiple times it being discussed how Riverheads might have been the champion in 2a, or better yet, I don't know that anyone here thinks that if Casto left Riverheads that they would be that dominant.
Sure, making it 4 or 5 classes would likely give more parity to champions maybe, but at what cost?
I'm not even for/against the idea, just showing that there is A LOT more to think about
Well Colonel, I like you asking the question, "what is the solution to the financial problems of the VHSL?"
Like Gunz said, and I agree, that any infiltration of public funds would lead to an outcry that would do more harm than the few bucks gained would do good. Regardless, as long as Govenor Northam is in office, that would never happen. He has made it abundantly clear that he is not a fan of the VHSL.
So what can be done?
1). Don't waste time or money right now on considering changing the Class system as it currently exist.
2). Raise the ticket price for state semi-final and final events to $15 per ticket. It has been $10 for as long as I can remember.
3). Adopt a 10 plus one format for regular season football. If a team doesn't make the playoffs, allow one "bowl" game at the descretion of the schools that are eligible. And the VHSL receives 35% of the ticket sales. (Not proceeds, ticket sales only).
4). Explore similar options as above in item number 3 for other sports, primarily basketball and baseball/softball.
5). Raise the annual VHSL base Membership fee by $100. What are there, 317 member schools in the league? 317 times $100 is
$31,700. There isn't a school system in Virginia that can't find an additional $100, once a year. Earmark this to rebuild the "rainy day" fund that is, and has been depleted. Put a sunset clause on this so that this $100 added fee expires in 10 years, or sooner if the rainy day fund reaches a pre-determined balance.
A quick note about why it is absolutely essential for an organization like the VHSL to have, and to maintain a substantial rainy day fund. Most of you will recall that Liberty Christian Academy filed suit against the VHSL some years back, demanding admission to the VHSL. Preparing a defense cost the VHSL an enormous amount of money, bringing the League very close to financial ruin. Fast forward a few years and the League had managed to operate in the black for the first time since the suit, and along comes Covid. Without at least a moderate rainy day fund, the League would in serious jeopardy of being unable to continue operations if this rainy day fund did not exist.
An additional note, call it Business 101. A "for profit" business has an advantage over a non-profit. They have collateral in their customer base. It's typically called business goodwill. Money can be borrowed on the value of business goodwill, because a business can be liquidated and a cash value exist for selling this business goodwill. The VHSL can not be sold. So essentially, there is no value to the business goodwill. Sure, limited money can be leveraged against fixed assets such as real estate, but that is very limited for the League.
(Give yourself 3 Continuing Education Credits for that one, LOL).
6). Cooperate branding and sponsorship. The VHSL recently signed a multi-year contract that seeks to do just that. Let's pray that it works out as well as it has been explained.
The opposite of increasing income is to decrease expenses. Payroll expenses are always the first item to be examined. The League needs take a real hard look at job task of each of their employees and find a way to combine workloads and eliminate as many positions as is practical.
The fixed liabilities of operating a business is always another good area to examine. Everything from the janitorial service used to clean the headquarters, to the energy consumption of the building, to vehicle expenses, and then on to financial matters such as debt service structure, insurance premiums, and tax and auditing services. No area should be left un-examined and the hard questions asked.
I have no doubt that Dr Haun and his staff are leaving no stone unturned in protecting the long term viability of the VHSL.
Like Gunz said, and I agree, that any infiltration of public funds would lead to an outcry that would do more harm than the few bucks gained would do good. Regardless, as long as Govenor Northam is in office, that would never happen. He has made it abundantly clear that he is not a fan of the VHSL.
So what can be done?
1). Don't waste time or money right now on considering changing the Class system as it currently exist.
2). Raise the ticket price for state semi-final and final events to $15 per ticket. It has been $10 for as long as I can remember.
3). Adopt a 10 plus one format for regular season football. If a team doesn't make the playoffs, allow one "bowl" game at the descretion of the schools that are eligible. And the VHSL receives 35% of the ticket sales. (Not proceeds, ticket sales only).
4). Explore similar options as above in item number 3 for other sports, primarily basketball and baseball/softball.
5). Raise the annual VHSL base Membership fee by $100. What are there, 317 member schools in the league? 317 times $100 is
$31,700. There isn't a school system in Virginia that can't find an additional $100, once a year. Earmark this to rebuild the "rainy day" fund that is, and has been depleted. Put a sunset clause on this so that this $100 added fee expires in 10 years, or sooner if the rainy day fund reaches a pre-determined balance.
A quick note about why it is absolutely essential for an organization like the VHSL to have, and to maintain a substantial rainy day fund. Most of you will recall that Liberty Christian Academy filed suit against the VHSL some years back, demanding admission to the VHSL. Preparing a defense cost the VHSL an enormous amount of money, bringing the League very close to financial ruin. Fast forward a few years and the League had managed to operate in the black for the first time since the suit, and along comes Covid. Without at least a moderate rainy day fund, the League would in serious jeopardy of being unable to continue operations if this rainy day fund did not exist.
An additional note, call it Business 101. A "for profit" business has an advantage over a non-profit. They have collateral in their customer base. It's typically called business goodwill. Money can be borrowed on the value of business goodwill, because a business can be liquidated and a cash value exist for selling this business goodwill. The VHSL can not be sold. So essentially, there is no value to the business goodwill. Sure, limited money can be leveraged against fixed assets such as real estate, but that is very limited for the League.
(Give yourself 3 Continuing Education Credits for that one, LOL).
6). Cooperate branding and sponsorship. The VHSL recently signed a multi-year contract that seeks to do just that. Let's pray that it works out as well as it has been explained.
The opposite of increasing income is to decrease expenses. Payroll expenses are always the first item to be examined. The League needs take a real hard look at job task of each of their employees and find a way to combine workloads and eliminate as many positions as is practical.
The fixed liabilities of operating a business is always another good area to examine. Everything from the janitorial service used to clean the headquarters, to the energy consumption of the building, to vehicle expenses, and then on to financial matters such as debt service structure, insurance premiums, and tax and auditing services. No area should be left un-examined and the hard questions asked.
I have no doubt that Dr Haun and his staff are leaving no stone unturned in protecting the long term viability of the VHSL.
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"Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen and welcome to Skyline High School presented by Rocket Mortgage."
Hell, if it will pay the bills, why not? (Just kidding!) I'm sure the crowd on here can come up with a bunch of unique tie-ins.
You wrote an excellent and thoughtful article as did the others. I especially like the idea of raising the fee to belong and as you say any school can easily afford a $100 increase or even more. Never thought of that. Let each sport in every district play some EXTRA games as you said about football having a 10 plus 1 where the schools keep some of the money and VHSL can get some also. Maybe like a pre season jamboree and it could be a money maker for all. I am also open to corporate sponsorship within limits. Thanks for the response. We should all want the VHSL to be as good as it can be because if they are at their best then we and the student athletes will benefit correct?
Hmm..how about this
0-400 1A - 1 State Title. 16 team playoff.
401-750 2A - split division by enrollment #'s or by geography and have two state titles. 16 team playoff for each split division.
751-1450 3A - split division by enrollment #'s or by geography and have two state titles. 32 team playoff for each split division.
1451-Above 4A - split division by enrollment #'s or by geography and have two state titles. 32 team playoff for each split division.
That's a whopping 7 state titles which should keep everyone from feeling screwed over in one way, shape or form and keep the money flowing..
0-400 1A - 1 State Title. 16 team playoff.
401-750 2A - split division by enrollment #'s or by geography and have two state titles. 16 team playoff for each split division.
751-1450 3A - split division by enrollment #'s or by geography and have two state titles. 32 team playoff for each split division.
1451-Above 4A - split division by enrollment #'s or by geography and have two state titles. 32 team playoff for each split division.
That's a whopping 7 state titles which should keep everyone from feeling screwed over in one way, shape or form and keep the money flowing..
Current system works fine. There is absolutely an issue with 1A that needs to be addressed unless folks want to see the smallest schools eventually give up football (11 man at least) but other than that the system is good.
folk act that is a bad thing when in fact small schools in several states do have another option that works fine.
experiment in the private sector
Seven VA schools to form 8-man football league - Ultimate Recruit
Greenbrier Christian (File photo: Sam Mizelle/recruit757) Seven schools will transition from traditional 11-man football this fall by Andy Hilton, recruit757 For some private schools, it’s been hard to field a full team that can play 11-man football. Only one school in the state (that we know...
www.ultimaterecruit.com
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Since everyone came back to this post I can tell you the 4 class system died. They tried 5 and it didn't get enough support so we are sticking with 6 for the forseeable future. The biggest takeaways were trying to make 6 better and get back to making districts and district tournaments mean something again.
not sure central VA want district tournaments in addition to the regionals
do you have a link to the VHSL dropping 4-Class system proposal?
I just think the days of districts and district tournaments has passed. Some districts are a lot more homogeneous than others, but let's use the Central District as an example. Three Class 3 schools, one Class 4 school, three Class 5 teams and one Class 6 school. I don't see any validity to providing accolades, (or playoffs spots), for a team in a District like this.
We have the six Class system for a reason. That is to provide like schools the chance to be competitive. Placing any value on District standing is counter-productive to the goal of allowing more teams to be competitive.
folk act that is a bad thing when in fact small schools in several states do have another option that works fine.
experiment in the private sector
Seven VA schools to form 8-man football league - Ultimate Recruit
Greenbrier Christian (File photo: Sam Mizelle/recruit757) Seven schools will transition from traditional 11-man football this fall by Andy Hilton, recruit757 For some private schools, it’s been hard to field a full team that can play 11-man football. Only one school in the state (that we know...
That really limits who you can play does it not? And not every small school out in western Virginia is going to drop 11 man so you'd be left with 5-6 schools spread out hours apart attempting to cobble together a full 8 man schedule. I don't see it happening at the public school level for a while. I think most communities would prefer to keep 11 man. But to make 1A competitive the VHSL must lower the enrollment cutoff.
So here's what happened. 4 class system died because of classes 1 and 2. They wanted to remain class 1 and 2 and then have 3-6 divide into 3-4 and 5-6 to make the 4 classes. Then 1 and 2 wanted to be able to divide and crown 2 state champions like a 1A and 1B and and 2A and 2B. With that being said the other two classifications could possibly want the same thing so now we are looking at possibly 8 state champions instead of 6 because of what is called the TC Williams effect. There would be about a 1300-1400 kid difference from the cut off of class 4 to the top of class 4. So 4 classes died with the vote being 12-12 and not gaining the 2/3 vote it needed
Then they came back with 5 classes which had lost out already to 4 classes previously and it only gained support of about half the regions in the state the other half were against it, so that died with a 12-12 vote
So the next thing was how to improve what we have and have the following to reconsider this spring:
o How to create region balance
o Region travel and equity
o Criteria for playing down in classifications
o How to make district tournaments relevant again for advancement to the region level
Then they came back with 5 classes which had lost out already to 4 classes previously and it only gained support of about half the regions in the state the other half were against it, so that died with a 12-12 vote
So the next thing was how to improve what we have and have the following to reconsider this spring:
o How to create region balance
o Region travel and equity
o Criteria for playing down in classifications
o How to make district tournaments relevant again for advancement to the region level
1A wanted TWO state titles at its current 475 cutoff format?? Yikes!
If they'd drop the cutoff to 400 then I could see 2A having two titles but not at the current cutoffs.
Agreed. But I'm not sure it's going to work for schools out west. Time will tell I guess and we're definitely headed in that direction as we continue to see larger schools dropping into 1A that hover around the 475 mark.
Agree over here in the Bay Rivers the same; 2 Class 2 schools, 4 class 3 schools and 4 class 4 schools.
