Class 4 Imbalance

[Virginia HS Football Fan]

More ineptitude from the VHSL.

Beginning in 2021 and hopefully lasting just two years:

58 schools in Class 4

21 schools (36.2%) are in 4B
8 schools (14.3%) are in 4D

The "in thing" these days is to complain about schools playing opponents which have 35 more students than their school, but this is just ridiculous.

I know that Virginia isn't a perfect geographic square, but sometimes, you have to draw the lines somewhere. And if you're on the wrong side of the line and have to travel for a couple of years, then so be it.

 

[1MoreHokie]

Class 4 is always going to be in flux because that's the student range that most schools seem to head to when they put another school in the same area as a Class 5 or 6 school. It's never going to be as peaceful in the middle as it is on the ends.

 

[OCBoy]

Send Orange, Louisa, and Western Albemarle to 4D for two years

 

[EPJr]

Send Orange, Louisa, and Western Albemarle to 4D for two years

I hear they may be doing some adjustments at the September committee meeting as part of the appeals hearings.

 

[Ampipe_High]

Travel is a huge issue, not because of it being unfair or anything like that, but if you have any insight into high school athletics and budgets it would be obvious. Athletic budgets typically get very little from the board and have to generate their revenue on their own. Bus drivers for away games are paid by athletics and these drivers are typically paid by the hour for these trips. Say it is a 2.5 trip (both ways is 5 hours), plus arriving an hour and half before game and 3 hours for the game itself. That trip just cost $200 alone for the driver. Add in fuel, meals, etc...those trips hit the budget hard. That's for one football game. Multiply that by a few away games, then add in soccer, baseball/softball, boys/girls basketball, volleyball, track, and any other sport and your talking thousands of dollars to travel. I know of one AD who said he allocated less than 8k for the year...spend 2-3k on those long away trips and it leaves very little to pay for equipment, officials, food, training/medical supplies....

 

[Scarlett_Grey]

I would imagine that $200 for a driver would need to be multiplied by 2 or 3 drivers for most schools.

 

[Virginia HS Football Fan]

The travel argument is overrated. Get on the bus and go. Plus, scheduling could be simplified if travel is a real issue.

Travel used to never be an issue much like playing a school with several hundred more kids in their population.

However, people are always looking for a crutch.

How about Western, Orange, Louisa, Eastern View and the three Class 4 Spotsylvania schools go to 4D? Those are not terrible trips as some would like to frame them as. Plus, this would change things up and be different for once.

 

[WP02alum]

Those would be pretty rough for Spotsy, but only for regional tournaments. So not that bad.

 

[OCBoy]

The travel argument is overrated. Get on the bus and go. Plus, scheduling could be simplified if travel is a real issue.

Travel used to never be an issue much like playing a school with several hundred more kids in their population.

However, people are always looking for a crutch.

How about Western, Orange, Louisa, Eastern View and the three Class 4 Spotsylvania schools go to 4D? Those are not terrible trips as some would like to frame them as. Plus, this would change things up and be different for once.

EV was already slated in that region I believe not long ago and switched with Charlottesville

 

[WHI]

My contacts say that when it’s all said and done Louisa and Orange will be in the battlefield - and we will have a EV Louisa game every year - So if courtland Can change their offense - JM can stop the transfers KG has some luck and Louisa can reload - I will be happy man - then ole OC Boy can stop his whining about schedules and they will transfer some teams so that 4b isn’t so lopsided

 

[OCBoy]

My contacts say that when it’s all said and done Louisa and Orange will be in the battlefield - and we will have a EV Louisa game every year - So if courtland Can change their offense - JM can stop the transfers KG has some luck and Louisa can reload - I will be happy man - then ole OC Boy can stop his whining about schedules and they will transfer some teams so that 4b isn’t so lopsided

That’s one of the first times I’ve said anything about the schedule. Many others on here have called it out. I confirmed. Since you wanna call out specifically, you damn right it’s a weak schedule. That’s a lot of ifs to make that schedule competitive.

 

[iDidntGetBanned]

You don’t have to play in a loaded District to have a competitive schedule. Just saying.

 

[rainman17]

You don’t have to play in a loaded District to have a competitive schedule. Just saying.

Would you say that GW has a competitive schedule but plays in a non-loaded district? What defines the competitive schedule or what's the criteria you look for?

I don't know many teams who have competitive schedules without playing in strong districts.

 

[iDidntGetBanned]

Would you say that GW has a competitive schedule but plays in a non-loaded district? What defines the competitive schedule or what's the criteria you look for?

I don't know many teams who have competitive schedules without playing in strong districts.

Great question. Though many people in Danville will bad mouth Nick Anderson, I think he’s done about as good as any great coach could do in Danville with the current state of things. I believe OOD scheduling for GW should be the best in Virginia due to its proximity to Richmond, Lynchburg/Roanoke and North Carolina. People talk about the Martinsburg and Sherando outer state rivalry, but North Carolina powerhouses like Reidsville, Greensboro Dudley, Northern Guilford and Eastern Alamance are, at longest trip, 30 minutes down the road and GW does not play any of them. No Salem or Northside or even a Heritage or Brookville.. Glass, Amherst and JF are quality but IMO you just don’t know what kind of team you’re getting year to year like you do the others I mentioned. GW’s schedule has left a lot to be desired since they dropped down to Double A and GW does not get quality playoff competition in the Piedmont, not even close. Though the district has improved, it’s still a long ways behind the Seminole, Blue Ridge and River Ridge. You have to have the higher ups on board to make these changes happen and I have zero faith in them to prioritize athletics again in Danville. In all, Danville has changed a lot over the past 15 years. Football isn’t a priority and as much as they talk “the kids the kids”.. Danville is in worst shape now than your inner cities like Richmond, Portsmouth, Norfolk, etc with gangs, poverty, drugs and crime.. To top it all off, only one of Danville’s 4 secondary schools is accredited and that’s a specialty school. Not making any excuses, but I’ve learned to lower my expectations over the years for anything Danville related, though I love to for them to win and succeed and I take it to heart when they lose. I love Coach Anderson, Chuck Vipperman and everything GW Football but the higher ups have done those kids and city a disservice. So no, I don’t they play a competitive schedule to prep them for November.

To answer the second part of your question
A competitive non District schedule would look like:
1. Glass, great rivalry game and a lot of history
2. Reidsville, 15 miles from Danville, 21x NC State Champions
3. Eastern Alamance/East Forsyth/West Forsyth/Greensboro Page or Dudley? Pick your poison..All within a 75 minute drive. All make at least the 3rd round of NC HS playoffs EVERY YEAR.
4. Gretna or Dan River, great for community. Plays GW like it’s their super bowl. Lots of athletes in both programs.
5. If you’re concerned about points: play Franklin County, PH or Fleming. I love the Dinwiddie match up myself but Fleming is probably 30 minutes closer than going to Dinwiddie.

District:
1. DROP PATRICK COUNTY!!


That’s what a competitive schedule from GW looks like to me.

 

[Virginia HS Football Fan]

My contacts say that when it’s all said and done Louisa and Orange will be in the battlefield - and we will have a EV Louisa game every year - So if courtland Can change their offense - JM can stop the transfers KG has some luck and Louisa can reload - I will be happy man - then ole OC Boy can stop his whining about schedules and they will transfer some teams so that 4b isn’t so lopsided

Once can only hope. My only worry is whenever High School Number 6 opens in Spotsylvania. That would affect Massaponax.

However, new developments are going in over in that part of the county so a massive reduction in enrollment may not happen anyways.

Where would those two schools go if they have current Class 4 enrollment if the Battlefield is already at 10 teams? Gotta think long term.

Also, you would know better than me. But what is the growth looking like in Orange? There was some talk at one time of them adding a second high school.

 

[rainman17]

Great question. Though many people in Danville will bad mouth Nick Anderson, I think he’s done about as good as any great coach could do in Danville with the current state of things. I believe OOD scheduling for GW should be the best in Virginia due to its proximity to Richmond, Lynchburg/Roanoke and North Carolina. People talk about the Martinsburg and Sherando outer state rivalry, but North Carolina powerhouses like Reidsville, Greensboro Dudley, Northern Guilford and Eastern Alamance are, at longest trip, 30 minutes down the road and GW does not play any of them. No Salem or Northside or even a Heritage or Brookville.. Glass, Amherst and JF are quality but IMO you just don’t know what kind of team you’re getting year to year like you do the others I mentioned. GW’s schedule has left a lot to be desired since they dropped down to Double A and GW does not get quality playoff competition in the Piedmont, not even close. Though the district has improved, it’s still a long ways behind the Seminole, Blue Ridge and River Ridge. You have to have the higher ups on board to make these changes happen and I have zero faith in them to prioritize athletics again in Danville. In all, Danville has changed a lot over the past 15 years. Football isn’t a priority and as much as they talk “the kids the kids”.. Danville is in worst shape now than your inner cities like Richmond, Portsmouth, Norfolk, etc with gangs, poverty, drugs and crime.. To top it all off, only one of Danville’s 4 secondary schools is accredited and that’s a specialty school. Not making any excuses, but I’ve learned to lower my expectations over the years for anything Danville related, though I love to for them to win and succeed and I take it to heart when they lose. I love Coach Anderson, Chuck Vipperman and everything GW Football but the higher ups have done those kids and city a disservice. So no, I don’t they play a competitive schedule to prep them for November.

To answer the second part of your question
A competitive non District schedule would look like:
1. Glass, great rivalry game and a lot of history
2. Reidsville, 15 miles from Danville, 21x NC State Champions
3. Eastern Alamance/East Forsyth/West Forsyth/Greensboro Page or Dudley? Pick your poison..All within a 75 minute drive. All make at least the 3rd round of NC HS playoffs EVERY YEAR.
4. Gretna or Dan River, great for community. Plays GW like it’s their super bowl. Lots of athletes in both programs.
5. If you’re concerned about points: play Franklin County, PH or Fleming. I love the Dinwiddie match up myself but Fleming is probably 30 minutes closer than going to Dinwiddie.

District:
1. DROP PATRICK COUNTY!!


That’s what a competitive schedule from GW looks like to me.

So GW should just play an independent schedule like this in all sports?

 

[OCBoy]

Once can only hope. My only worry is whenever High School Number 6 opens in Spotsylvania. That would affect Massaponax.

However, new developments are going in over in that part of the county so a massive reduction in enrollment may not happen anyways.

Where would those two schools go if they have current Class 4 enrollment if the Battlefield is already at 10 teams? Gotta think long term.

Also, you would know better than me. But what is the growth looking like in Orange? There was some talk at one time of them adding a second high school.

I can see a second district being formed out of the Battlefield. With Louisa and Orange rejoining somewhere in there

 

[iDidntGetBanned]

So GW should just play an independent schedule like this in all sports?

They wouldn’t play an independent schedule. You don’t have to play every team in your district if you choose not to. In my humble opinion, GW does not need to play Martinsville or Patrick County in football, but especially Patrick. I have no problem with them playing the other 4 teams in their district. They gain nothing out of playing those two teams, not even meaningful points. Those options I gave above, were examples of what a competitive non district schedule would look like. As far as all sports goes, the ONLY competitive sports at GW are boys basketball and football( and their JV teams). The other sports normally get beat bad by Tunstall, Patrick County, Bassett, etc.

 

[courtlandcougars1987]

Orange county where I live is really booming, especially in the northern part. 200 new houses just recently built in new sections of neighborhood. Lots of new commercial infrastructure on the way, heck they just built us a Taco bell hooray !

 

[Mic Honcho]

GW has spoken to Eastern Alamance and Western Alamance and Williams and Southern
Alamance all of those schools play their County
Rivals as non District games they have talked to
Hillsborough Orange and Person neither wanted to Play they we’re talking to Page before COVID
Hit but NC has put realignment on hold for a year GW played Reidsville in JV this year due to
PC dropping their program Reidsville’s open dates were late in the schedule and they couldn’t work it out Reidsville has to play its County schools early efforts have been made in all those areas

 

[tommythecpa]

GW has continually tried to schedule NC schools over the past 20 years. The NC schools have plenty of options without going out of state. GW wanted Durham and Greensboro schools.

 

[EPJr]

I hear they may be doing some adjustments at the September committee meeting as part of the appeals hearings.

still no resolution
Executive Committee will now have to make a decision on 9/24.

 

[Virginia HS Football Fan]

It is so easy to fix and they can't think big picture.

Schools in VHSL's Class 4, Region B seeking solution to future imbalance

What does the Virginia High School League do with the overload of schools in Class 4, Region B for the 2021-22 and 2022-23 seasons?

richmond.com

 

[EPJr]

4D East
Louisa
Eastern View
Orange
Spotsylvania
King George
Culpeper
Courtland
Chancellor

4D - West
Amherst
Blacksburg
E. C. Glass
George Washington
Halifax County
Jefferson Forest
Pulaski
Salem

top four in each section make the playoffs:
4W @1E
3W @2E

4E @1W
3E@2W

 

[OCBoy]

L

4D East
Louisa
Eastern View
Orange
Spotsylvania
King George
Culpeper
Courtland
Chancellor

4D - West
Amherst
Blacksburg
E. C. Glass
George Washington
Halifax County
Jefferson Forest
Pulaski
Salem

top four in each section make the playoffs:
4W @1E
3W @2E

4E @1W
3E@2W

Looks good

 

[WHI]

At least we are trying VHSL is incompetent absolutely and without question

 

[Gunz41]

Not that it really matters to me where these schools play, but from an outsiders perspective it does appear that by the above proposal that you are just taking one problem and transferring it elsewhere.

Unless I am missing something (which is certainly possible), the issue is 21 in B and 8 in D. So exactly what is the reasoning to then make it 13 in B and 16 in D?

And to me, I think it is extremely unfair to programs to say that costs are overrated. Maybe not so much the travel part of it competition wise, but that is a lot bigger bill for schools, and some are strapped thin already. I believe that people should think about all parts of something before criticism begins. We have read/see with our own eyes the good and bad stories about the attendance and therefore gate with teams.

From this outside view, I do see the imbalance and not sure its exactly fair that one Region has over double the teams as another.

But before you just condemn everyone for that, just look at schools that have moved up/down since we went back to the 4 regions. Now, the question becomes is it fair to any of these teams that would be moving in the above proposal to be "swing schools"? Because when the next imbalance happens, teams would have to move again. Which also effects the future of the scheduling that teams do.

To me, the biggest glaring issue with the regional setup currently is having teams in same district yet in different regions.

All I am trying to say is try to expand your mind to think of the broader picture instead of just thinking it is just an extremely simple fix and bash and say how stupid/unworthy of job they have.

 

[iDidntGetBanned]

Not that it really matters to me where these schools play, but from an outsiders perspective it does appear that by the above proposal that you are just taking one problem and transferring it elsewhere.

Unless I am missing something (which is certainly possible), the issue is 21 in B and 8 in D. So exactly what is the reasoning to then make it 13 in B and 16 in D?

And to me, I think it is extremely unfair to programs to say that costs are overrated. Maybe not so much the travel part of it competition wise, but that is a lot bigger bill for schools, and some are strapped thin already. I believe that people should think about all parts of something before criticism begins. We have read/see with our own eyes the good and bad stories about the attendance and therefore gate with teams.

From this outside view, I do see the imbalance and not sure its exactly fair that one Region has over double the teams as another.

But before you just condemn everyone for that, just look at schools that have moved up/down since we went back to the 4 regions. Now, the question becomes is it fair to any of these teams that would be moving in the above proposal to be "swing schools"? Because when the next imbalance happens, teams would have to move again. Which also effects the future of the scheduling that teams do.

To me, the biggest glaring issue with the regional setup currently is having teams in same district yet in different regions.

All I am trying to say is try to expand your mind to think of the broader picture instead of just thinking it is just an extremely simple fix and bash and say how stupid/unworthy of job they have.

Hope all is well Gunz. I have no say so in the matter but I see no problem with that proposal. If we’re being honest. Salem is going to win Region D every year in football and will meet whoever comes out of C. Salem has won the thing every single year and has only had 1 close call. GW Danville is going to win D every year in basketball. Give the region more parody. Have the Region D East champion vs Region D West champion in the Regional Final. Nobody from Louisa is going to complain about traveling to Salem for the regional championship and vice versa.

 

[WHI]

Seriously? I assume you have a job and you are expected to be good at it- I’m not sure about most people On this board but I am assuming they are not on VHSL board - if you have decided to be on the board and take it on then you get to deal with your ineptitude just like any head coach on a Friday night - any argument that the current set up is in any way fair or balanced defies reason - your right most of us don’t have the answer but do expect the people who
Proclaim to be experts could do at least a decent job? The current imbalance is not fair or reasonable and those who claim to be experts and wish to call the shots will and
Must be called out when they do a poor job - this is a poor job and is without thought just easy in my opinion -

 

[EPJr]

Not that it really matters to me where these schools play, but from an outsiders perspective it does appear that by the above proposal that you are just taking one problem and transferring it elsewhere.

Unless I am missing something (which is certainly possible), the issue is 21 in B and 8 in D. So exactly what is the reasoning to then make it 13 in B and 16 in D?

And to me, I think it is extremely unfair to programs to say that costs are overrated. Maybe not so much the travel part of it competition wise, but that is a lot bigger bill for schools, and some are strapped thin already. I believe that people should think about all parts of something before criticism begins. We have read/see with our own eyes the good and bad stories about the attendance and therefore gate with teams.

From this outside view, I do see the imbalance and not sure its exactly fair that one Region has over double the teams as another.

But before you just condemn everyone for that, just look at schools that have moved up/down since we went back to the 4 regions. Now, the question becomes is it fair to any of these teams that would be moving in the above proposal to be "swing schools"? Because when the next imbalance happens, teams would have to move again. Which also effects the future of the scheduling that teams do.

To me, the biggest glaring issue with the regional setup currently is having teams in same district yet in different regions.

All I am trying to say is try to expand your mind to think of the broader picture instead of just thinking it is just an extremely simple fix and bash and say how stupid/unworthy of job they have.

let's see yours

 

[Gunz41]

See you guys who responded negatively here aren't getting it, or simply don't want to get it.

I never ONCE said what they had was good. My input has absolutely ZERO to do with that part though. My point was that viewing it as something simple and by not doing it is showing ineptitude.

Now to somewhat answer the crux of this, I don't think that the proposal in this thread with moving teams to 4D is bad. I actually think that is the best thing to do.

But here are just 2 questions that were posted here: Why would moving 8 teams to D (raising them to 16) and lowering B to 13 be the right thing? Again that comes down to some of these schools who often change classifications.

So in the Mid Cycle says B has 20, with 5 being newly added. So let's say it is 21 like is written above, and we will go ahead with the move of the 8 schools to D. and let's say that the next cycle a few of those schools move again. Thst would then put B at around 10 and D still at 16, so isn't it prudent to move some teams back to B to even it out? That is what I am saying about swing teams. I don't claim to know the answers, I am not even saying that the above proposal is bad. I am only saying that it is more complicated than just moving a few teams.

As for the travel being overrated, I am not going to apologize for saying that. Not all budgets are created equal. I don't have any issue with the travel part, but I do with the money part when some teams are hurting a lot more than others. And that has to be factored in when these things are coming up.

So in closing, I believe that the above proposal lays a good framework for something that can be good, and I am only pointing out that to think it is so simple without looking at every piece is doing it an injustice. And I am also not pro VHSL here. But I also don't believe that they are doing things to intentionally hurt teams, areas, etc. And sure they are open to criticism, but to me I don't think that someone without full knowledge of the subject has a basis for true criticism. Example, a construction worker has the right to criticize a lawyer, but does that mean that it is constructive criticism? And my last comment here is that before coming at me earlier, I sure hope you read where I said "I do see an imbalance and not sure its exactly fair..." So I never ONCE claimed that what they have is right. Its certainly not right. But I don't think the solution is to fix one problem with another. Especially when either the current problem or the new one could very easily become better/worse in 2 years time.

If you really want to know my thoughts, I actually think that the East/West 16 teams each was far superior and they shouldn't have changed that.

 

[mike salem]

I'm not sure what progress has been made on moving to a 4 Class system, but if the VHSL is going to that in the next couple of years then some of these disparities may be alleviated. New disparities could be created with that as well. In a 4 Class system a lot of current C4 teams in Region D would drop to C3 and there would be about 18 teams that would fight for the playoffs.

Halifax
Jefferson Forest
EC Glass
GW Danville
Salem
Pulaski Co
Blacksburg
Amherst Co
Carroll Co
Magna Vista
William Byrd
Heritage Lyn
Christiansburg
Lord Botetourt
Cave Spring
Northside
Rockbridge Co
Staunton River

 

[Ampipe_High]

Hope all is well Gunz. I have no say so in the matter but I see no problem with that proposal. If we’re being honest. Salem is going to win Region D every year in football and will meet whoever comes out of C. Salem has won the thing every single year and has only had 1 close call. GW Danville is going to win D every year in basketball. Give the region more parody. Have the Region D East champion vs Region D West champion in the Regional Final. Nobody from Louisa is going to complain about traveling to Salem for the regional championship and vice versa.

Halifax basketball might beg to differ about GW Danville winning D every year.

 

[iDidntGetBanned]

Halifax basketball might beg to differ about GW Danville winning D every year.

True that! Imo, they’ll run things the next 4. This past year’s GW team was down big time and I didn’t see a lot of eye popping young talent.

 

[EPJr]

Executive Committee is going to decide something in February and they wanted the Region to have some examples when they come to the meeting. So give us some more examples. As folks have said this all temporary because the C4 subcommittee is already at work.

 

[tommythecpa]

True that! Imo, they’ll run things the next 4. This past year’s GW team was down big time and I didn’t see a lot of eye popping young talent.

GW must have a great program if they go to the Final 4 in a down year. I understand Halifax has been hit by the transfer virus.

 

[Virginia HS Football Fan]

I'm fine with this.

Although, I prefer uniformity with all regions going to a sub-regional setup such as this if this is the route that the VHSL would want to go (but Heaven forbid, they regulate the regions and the districts).

Actually, I would prefer just to have them all together within 4D and you play who you play without setting it up into East/West. Probably, because I think all regions and all playoff formats should be set up exactly the same.

As a player, I always loved going to new places and playing new opponents. I don't see nearly the brushback about travel in other states as I do in Virginia. But then again, as a state, we have regressed in recent years so I'm not surprised.

But the funny thing is that there have been more solutions provided on this board and on Twitter than what the "educational leaders" at the VHSL have come up with.

At least we are the ones trying.

 

[jdjack]

Instead of squeezing schools into 4 classes...just go with 5...not as watered down as 6...and can't be nearly the balance issues of 4

 

[EPJr]

Instead of squeezing schools into 4 classes...just go with 5...not as watered down as 6...and can't be nearly the balance issues of 4

agree but the subcommittee will bring back a report on four.

 

[jdjack]

agree but the subcommittee will bring back a report on four.

4 classifications is a done deal...old heads like it because it's "close to the way things used to be and isn't watered down playoffs"...problem is just about every new school being built fits into the 1200-1600 school size... notwithstanding where population centers are in that Region B corridor so that region will constantly present size issue in comparison to others...imo 5 classes allows for Div I to allow competitive competition for small schools while allowing for future growth in larger divisions without overloading natural regions or creating travel for unnatural regions.