Classification question
- Thread starter mike salem
- Start date
I see what you are trying to get at but doing classification by roster size is just not realistic. Roster sizes can fluctuate much more than overall school size, and having to recalculate each school's classification every season would make it extremely cumbersome to do every year (or every other year, 4th year, etc.). More importantly, getting the roster numbers (which are usually not set until August or September) and then trying to make a schedule against similar opponents would would make scheduling literally impossible. If classification by roster size was done by using a three or four year running average that might be possible but it is just too complicated.
It also creates disadvantages when a smaller school where everyone comes out for the football team might have to play a much larger school where they just don't attract huge number of kids for football.
Lastly, and arguable most importantly, it can (will?) lead to roster manipulation (i.e., keeping your numbers down) so that a school gets to play in a lower classification. That issue, in and of itself, would mean this will never happen.
It also creates disadvantages when a smaller school where everyone comes out for the football team might have to play a much larger school where they just don't attract huge number of kids for football.
Lastly, and arguable most importantly, it can (will?) lead to roster manipulation (i.e., keeping your numbers down) so that a school gets to play in a lower classification. That issue, in and of itself, would mean this will never happen.
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I might be incorrect in this, but I believe Penn. is classified by the total number of male students for their sports, total number of female for their sports. If that is the system, boy and girl sports at the same school could possibly play in different classifications. Im'm not sure if that happens, others may have issues with that system, but it seems like a better system than just total enrollment. Its been mentioned on here before how the demographic of an area is effected football in general. My question would be more like this, most local youth programs have an abundance of players, able to have multiple teams in same division, or multiple leagues all together in some cases. It appears once at the middle school/JV level that number dips a bit, which is understandable with kids getting older, not playing just because mom and dad signed them up. That number seems to be dropping off drastically at some schools, mainly 3A & down, at the Varsity level. Take Skyline for example, 27 kids on varsity roster, 3 of which are sophomore's that start. JV is made up of mainly 8th & 9th graders. What is going on with the transition from JV to Varsity? You cant say the kids have changed, they can only follow an example set forward. Are the coaches not doing a good job of talking with kids in the hallways? Are kids only wanting to play for a school if they have a winning program? Those are more my questions. I know its a little off topic but just a thought.
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I think this needs to be looked at in certain situations. ex being Riverhead. They have won 5 straight state titles. They are putting a bigger gap between them and the rest of C1. They have C4 roster size. I don't see anyone from C1 being close to them this yr. Why not move them up to play better teams? If roster size decreases then move them back down. I obviously you can't do this for the entire state but have a rule in place to slide a team if needed when a similar situation arises. Is it fair for West Point to play a team with a roster 3x their size? Or maybe the VHSL has to set cap limits per classification and coaches have to actually make cuts like other sports. Granted this is a rare situation.
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Kids have more choices of things to do. Most roster across the state are getting smaller. Lake Taylor had most of their starters playing both ways in the spring. I see this trend continuing.
Why not use the European soccer league model? Top three/four finishers move up a classification and the bottom three/four move down. May not solve all the problems but would/should gain competitive balance in a few short years. And as far as other things to do and all that, it also stems from our culture shift to everyone getting a trophy in youth sports. Once it gets competitive there is a drop off because no one knows how to learn from losses. Not trying to argue but in my opinion that is as big of an issue as video games, year round baseball and basketball, etc.
I wasn't suggesting classification be determined solely on roster size, but should roster size be factored in with a team that is close to the cutoff line or has dominated in a class?
In the end it all depends on coaching and if you get the players to buy in to your system. Riverheads has been a monster. That alone will have a lot of kids come out to play.
One follow up, which sport are we basing “success” on? Football only? I mean there are no roster size limits that I am aware of currently, correct?
You can't change a school's classification because they don't run a good/popular program. If they don't have the numbers, they should try and do something about it, or fold it up.
I assume this is all about football.
there are two examples of schools in the RVA area.
George Wythe (C-4) and Meadowbrook (C-5). They are both is an area heavily populated by Hispanic kids who do not play gridiron football and it shows in the sparce turnout for football. Do they go down in classification?
Virginia is one of the few states without an alternative. Is the VHSL still experiementing with 8-man football? There are some private schools that are tho: https://www.visfl.org/
there are two examples of schools in the RVA area.
George Wythe (C-4) and Meadowbrook (C-5). They are both is an area heavily populated by Hispanic kids who do not play gridiron football and it shows in the sparce turnout for football. Do they go down in classification?
Virginia is one of the few states without an alternative. Is the VHSL still experiementing with 8-man football? There are some private schools that are tho: https://www.visfl.org/
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Here is the problem with any basis for classification other than enrollment....An athletic program is not just football. If we bump up Riverheads and Highland Springs in football, what do we do with the rest of their sports who aren't necessarily dominant or have huge rosters. What if they suck at lets say wrestling and have a tiny team, do we bump them down?
We are all football fans and want to look at it through that lens, but there is a whole lot more to the picture.
That being said, if it were only football we were talking about, I like the Euro Soccer model where teams get bumped up or relegated based on their performance.
We are all football fans and want to look at it through that lens, but there is a whole lot more to the picture.
That being said, if it were only football we were talking about, I like the Euro Soccer model where teams get bumped up or relegated based on their performance.
Would it be possible to classify certain sports within a program up? Besides Riverheads in football as an ex, Christiansburg for wrestling?
NCAA allows you to do that in one sport -
Dallas Baptist in baseball
Johns Hopkin in Lacrosse
UM - Duluth in Ice Hockey
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Athletic directors nightmare if all sports at same school are not same classification.
As for the person who mentioned Skyline. Last year, during a more restrictive time for students not being in schools, Skyline's roster was larger. There was just a large amount of seniors starting on that squad, especially on offensive and defensive line. You are always going to have those fluctuations. But yes, it certainly was hard to recruit kids in the hallways when students were not in the hallways. I can speak to that as a coach of a non-football sport.
As for the person who mentioned Skyline. Last year, during a more restrictive time for students not being in schools, Skyline's roster was larger. There was just a large amount of seniors starting on that squad, especially on offensive and defensive line. You are always going to have those fluctuations. But yes, it certainly was hard to recruit kids in the hallways when students were not in the hallways. I can speak to that as a coach of a non-football sport.
Demographics is an issue in many NOVA schools. Those schools are disproportionately populated by students that prefer soccer over football. That discussion ended up in the local papers and got ugly as critics claimed the issue was steeped in racism. I think Park View Sterling is an example, not sure though. They probably have 1A level interest in football.
in Nova, Manassas Park suspended football for a year because of lack of participation even though they are C-3.
they are in the state every year in soccer tho.
This is what I was thinking. Keep it to just one sport. Ex) John Marshall in basketball. No way should they be playing in C2.
speaking of which, JM actually played up for years; it is only recently they have been denied the exemption.
Seems like you could work out some type of an exemption or waiver system if you have to field a team that doesn't coincide with your enrollment e.g. 30 players vs 2100 students over a 3 or 4 year period.
Your correct. Manassas Park has the same issue. That’s more of a soccer school than football.
Sorry but have we moved to adjusting schools classification in all sports based off of whether they proficient at that sport? Not arguing against or for just wanted to see if our discussion has shifted.
Six classifications is probably too many for VA. That's part of the problem.
Completely agree, what’s the fix? Pretty sure that discussion was tabled by VHSL wasn’t it?
Yeah, I don't know tbh. But that's probably a big part of the problem. Teams like Riverheads wouldn't be running roughshod over everyone every year if they faced better competition. The downside to fewer classifications is really at the very bottom. It's tough on the smaller programs.
With the exception of 2 games, PM, Gap, Riverheads plays 5 3A schools and 3 2A schools during the regular season, and have been doing that for years. Maybe its not the roster size but has a lot to do with coaching, not trying to criticize any coach or program, but there are a lot of coaches out there you could give the Riverheads team to and they couldnt consistently win with them. Just because you have 50 kids on a roster doesnt mean you have 50 superstars or even 50 average players. Thats especially true in 1A, its about what kids come out, if you have 450 kids in a school the law of averages will be that you will only have a X amount that are good athletes whether you have 30 or 50 standing on the sideline. You think when Casto retires that Riverheads will be just as successful? I dont think so, so just maybe it has more to do with coaching than roster size.
earlier this year I was looking at how NC solved the same problem. They divided the state in half and each half only have four classes.
This is true.
One of many things that marks Riverheads is their consistency. They do not panic, ever. They stick to their gameplan and do not deviate. I seem to recall not that long ago Galax was gashing you guys with the run, and inexplicably Dixon called a pass play right before halftime.. and it got pick sixed. Changed the whole complexion of the game. They then later set up in shotgun at the 6 inch line and fumbled the snap and settled for a FG rather than hand the freaking ball off two more plays with the running back.
Essex is notorious for doing this as well, no offense Essex fans. They always have a massive line and speedy backs..and out of the blue they'll just start chucking wings and a prayer. And they did that against Riverheads also a couple years back in the playoffs. They were picking up chunks of yards on the ground with that big oline leading the way and then chucked a deep ball that got picked. Changed the whole attitude of the game. Honaker was like this as well.
Schools at the 1A and 2A level need to mimic the Riverheads mentality and give it time to work. Success breeds success and those roster numbers will slowly but surely move up as a program gets built up. But Rome wasnt built in a day and it will take a while to get a program going.
Which brings up another issue.. it seems 9 times out of 10 when a coach has success at the 1A level they hop ship as soon as possible out of 1A for the more prestigious coaching gigs. Casto being an exception to this which has helped sustain the foundation he built. I have no answer on how to fix the issue of coaches leaving for more money. Gofundme? lol
With that said I've also mentioned the following breakdown of a 4 division alignment many times:
0-400 1A
401-750 2A
751-1450 3A
1451-above 4A
Invite private schools to join and figure out how to include them in this alignment.
0-400 1A
401-750 2A
751-1450 3A
1451-above 4A
Invite private schools to join and figure out how to include them in this alignment.
I'm sure it does have a lot to do with coaching. Anytime you have that many people (parents, kids, coaches, fundraisers, etc) buying in - you're doing something right.
I'm looking at it from more of a purely competitive standpoint. When you can roll out 50-60 vs 30 that's more of an advantage than what most people realize. Some 1A schools are just looking for enough bodies to not have to play both ways...doesn't even really matter if they're athletic.
You see something similar with the Catholics or parochial schools. Their enrollment doesn't always reflect the competitiveness of their athletic programs. They take different types of students, not the same enrollment boundaries, etc. So most of the time they're going to beat a similar sized public school. But if they have to play up a classification or run into another private on the same level, it's not nearly as easy for them. Whenever you have too many classifications, you're going to see a lot of the same teams winning every year because they're not facing as much competition as they otherwise would.
I like the way NC did it. There's a bit of a natural rivalry between the east and west. You have private schools like Charlotte Catholic and Cardinal Gibbons in 4A. Open enrollment in Forsyth County. It makes it interesting.
Numbers are a huge advantage when it comes to something as simple as practice. with 50+ players you can easily put together a scout team. West Point has to be creative with only about 20 players. Coaching is a HUGE part. Casto's first season they were 0-10 and now look at the program. Very impressive.
Yeah, you're only a handful of injuries away from being in a really bad situation with 20-30 players on a roster. Some people would consider that unsafe.
And you're right. Coaching can make a huge difference. You see that every once in a while. We had a coach in Charlotte at Mallard Creek - Mike Palmieri. Nationally ranked program at the highest level in probably the most competitive conference in NC. He left to become the HC at Denmark in Alpharetta, GA. I think he started the year with just over 40 players in GA 7A. That's probably about half of what he had at Mallard Creek. They're 2-1. But there's been a noticeable dropoff at Mallard Creek since his departure. They're still really good, just not quite the contenders they once were. Might be seeing the same thing at Chambers, with Hackett leaving, their defense might not be as strong as years past. Tommy Knotts is another good example.
Coaches like that are even more important at smaller schools like Riverheads. You have a bit more margin for error when you have 2000 or more enrollment because your overall talent can carry you. School like Riverheads, might go on a run like that every five or six years with a good feeder middle school, and a couple good classes. It takes a really good coach to sustain that success.
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Reading your question again I see that I misinterpreted what you were asking-my mistake. The question did generate good discussion, though. My revised (and now short) answer: no, don't factor in roster size. But I still stand by the points I made, even if they are a bit off target to your question.
Why would you ever penalize a community or coaching staff for being good at what they do to encourage participation unless you are just at a school who doesn't have
40 1A
67 2A
91 3A
116 4A
1A early round playoffs are unwatchable now
Horrible idea -- no balance in numbers
40 1A
67 2A
91 3A
116 4A
1A early round playoffs are unwatchable now
A point was made in particular about the schools Riverheads play during the regular season. While it is true they play “up” for most of their regular season, this discussion has more to do with roster size and the recent dominance during the playoffs of certain teams not just the Gladiators.
But as a point of reference, JV played last night and had 30 8th and 9th graders with no 10th graders. So combined that’s 82 young men in five classes playing football (52 I think on the Varsity). That kind of participation is extremely rare up to and including most C3 schools. Another oddity is that two years ago this same JV group only had 18 kids playing Seniors (Middle school) and were getting smashed most weeks.
All that said, limiting the size of the rosters in C1 or moving teams based on their participation sounds like it levels the field but in the end will still drive less successful teams to lower numbers. Twenty years ago Stonewall Jackson was a beast but have been struggling for about a decade now. They cancelled their season for lack of numbers and they are 2A. There isn’t a formula that fixes this but there should be some kind of discussion that leads the VHSL to developing a plan to begin to address it.
But as a point of reference, JV played last night and had 30 8th and 9th graders with no 10th graders. So combined that’s 82 young men in five classes playing football (52 I think on the Varsity). That kind of participation is extremely rare up to and including most C3 schools. Another oddity is that two years ago this same JV group only had 18 kids playing Seniors (Middle school) and were getting smashed most weeks.
All that said, limiting the size of the rosters in C1 or moving teams based on their participation sounds like it levels the field but in the end will still drive less successful teams to lower numbers. Twenty years ago Stonewall Jackson was a beast but have been struggling for about a decade now. They cancelled their season for lack of numbers and they are 2A. There isn’t a formula that fixes this but there should be some kind of discussion that leads the VHSL to developing a plan to begin to address it.
Even when there were 3 classes, there were 6 divisions for football only. As Ricky Bobby would say, "With all due respect..." this entire thread is pointless for all the reasons falcettik mentioned way up the thread.
