Effort to stem Illegal Transfers
- Thread starter DinwiddieProud
- Start date
Transfers should be allowed with no prohibitions-----its a free country. It's recruiting that should be prohibited with steep penalties.
If a student athlete transfers, legally and is clear to play in the regular season, there's no reason to remove them from post season. That's a harsh rule to place on them. Let's try to remember, SOMETIMES parents take jobs in different areas that require a move....we have to keep an open mind to often delicate family dynamics. I'm against punishing the kids. The ADULTS are responsible for doing the right thing here...their MORAL COMPASS has to be true and calibrated.
Do you have a working definition of a "illegal" transfer. Need one that don't involve moral high ground and delicate family dynamics.
What do you define as a legal and illegal transfer? Is a kid living in one county playing in another county legal? Is a kid that has been kicked out of one school but then goes play for another the next season ok? If you go to a county school then see that the town school inside your county has a better program then the county is it legal to transfer? Very broad area to cover and these are situations I have stated happened back when I was in high school many many years ago so don’t anyone get their undies tangled thinking I am talking about your school or program!
I think it’s weird and too complicated for any of us to decide. I’ve heard very good points from @gwb16 on these days ”used to be” guys with egos trying to relive their playing days. I agree with that. I’ve heard @falcettik talk about the morals/integrity aspect of the specific Hayfield situation. I agree with that. I also agree with @Phoebus Fan about kids playing with their coaches. I 100% agree with that. @Bucktown434 and @BleedingNavy have made some very good points.
Most of you have kids on this board. I work with them and have hundreds that may as well be mine… I’m a huge believer in doing what’s in the best interest of the child. I’m also a huge believer in choice and autonomy. If a parent chooses to move their child 30 minutes to play for a coach they’ve played for, then so be it. I don’t think that’s breaking any rules. Many of you would make the point that sacrifice is a huge characteristic of being a good parent. Wouldn’t putting your child in a better situation be that? I am a proud educator myself and I’m here to tell you, I wouldn’t trust my child playing for any coach or going to a lot of these schools/school districts.
I think the idea of recruiting is sticky. Some of your favorite coaches are at youth league games throughout the year, looking at talent amongst other things. Isn’t that recruiting? I don’t see anything wrong with that.. Promoting your program online whether it’s YouTube, X or other platforms? Building your brand? You’re recruiting families to your program..
The only illegal form of recruiting I see is stopping kids after a game or jumping into DMs. Happens all the time but had very very little success rate.
Just my opinion.
Most of you have kids on this board. I work with them and have hundreds that may as well be mine… I’m a huge believer in doing what’s in the best interest of the child. I’m also a huge believer in choice and autonomy. If a parent chooses to move their child 30 minutes to play for a coach they’ve played for, then so be it. I don’t think that’s breaking any rules. Many of you would make the point that sacrifice is a huge characteristic of being a good parent. Wouldn’t putting your child in a better situation be that? I am a proud educator myself and I’m here to tell you, I wouldn’t trust my child playing for any coach or going to a lot of these schools/school districts.
I think the idea of recruiting is sticky. Some of your favorite coaches are at youth league games throughout the year, looking at talent amongst other things. Isn’t that recruiting? I don’t see anything wrong with that.. Promoting your program online whether it’s YouTube, X or other platforms? Building your brand? You’re recruiting families to your program..
The only illegal form of recruiting I see is stopping kids after a game or jumping into DMs. Happens all the time but had very very little success rate.
Just my opinion.
We hear all these stories about contenders and people transferring there to win championships. But I have seen a lot of questionable transfers where kids switch schools to a worse school just so they can make the team, albeit the last kid on the bench. And then they don't even make the team there. People really need to remember what school is for and say no to their kids
Not in my opinion. If a kid can legally play in the regular season they should not be excluded from postseason. My point is the same as it always has been, consistent design AND enforcement of the rules with the objective of giving kids opportunity for success. The issues arise, in my opinion, when that consistency, both in design and enforcement, is permitted to erode.
Nope i hate this idea. If they’re eligible for regular season then they should be eligible for playoffs.
I don’t see anything wrong with a player going to a school that they feel can make the best use of their athletic abilities. To be honest there are a lot of bad situations at the high school level and I don’t blame any kid that doesn’t want to play for a particular school. For example, Ksaan Farrar talent was just wasting away at Menchville and he transferred to Green Run and is now a top 5 QB in the state and going D1.
I don’t see anything wrong with a player going to a school that they feel can make the best use of their athletic abilities. To be honest there are a lot of bad situations at the high school level and I don’t blame any kid that doesn’t want to play for a particular school. For example, Ksaan Farrar talent was just wasting away at Menchville and he transferred to Green Run and is now a top 5 QB in the state and going D1.
Just off the top of my head....claiming a kid is homeless, when he isn't, to get him into your school/program. You call it or color it whatever you want...that's the SMOKE/FIRE scenario.
Honest question from my perspective....why are we even having this discussion? Why can't some people coach the kids in their school zone and build from that, like better than 95% of the rest of the coaches in the state? THAT'S THE REAL QUESTION that folks should be asking. Are the overinflated egos and enablers that out of touch with moral duties and responsibilities that they're incapable of teaching our youth that being truthful AND honorable are "kinda, sorta important" traits to possess? Or....we just gonna blow through that part and just go straight to 70 point wins is the only way you're getting an NIL deal, or going JUCO? Or staright to that 37U Saturday afternoon league for the washed up wannbes/coulda beens?
Define "illegal"....great question. VHSL has a clearly laid out path for transfers...when you don't follow that path...well is it illegal? Or....are you being unfairly picked on for being successful? According to a few interviews I've listened to - that's a legit question...
All dynamic questions. Nothing static.
The only "constant" - just CHOOSE to do the right thing and you'll never have to worry about the word "illegal" being associated with your program....and honestly, doesn't illegal conjure the thoughts of actual "LAWS" being broken? Nothing in the VHSL guidelines was written by Virginia lawmakers, no Virginia "codes" violated. Some "hair splitting" being attempted.
Which is why I choose to push the "do what's MORALLY acceptable"....If you're incapable, you're not fit to be coaching and molding our youth.
I know many think my views are antiquated and even bias, but that's were everyone is wrong. I don't agree with @DinwiddieProud on his proposed transfer rule; however, I do firmly believe in member schools following the rules we currently have in place.
Many years ago coaches were not allowed to coach AAU, travel, and rec league teams, but surprisingly the same people/parents (soccer, baseball, and softball) who had the rules changed are the same ones griping now. I do not believe coaches should create Club teams and funnel the players to the schools that hire them. We have to draw a line somewhere and in my opinion this is it.
I get the opportunity argument, but if these type of programs draw all the college coaches and the players need this level of exposure to get opportunities then do we really need high school sports at all?
I have been in the sports game a long time as a player coach and official. I know how recruiting works and it's cutthroat. I seen kids helped tremendously while others have been used and thrown away like garbage.
In my opinion, the best option for high school sports is to make kids play in the zone they live in or have one open division where school districts who allow students to go wherever they desire (magnate schools and open enrollment) can compete against equitable competition. The rest of the divisions play by the zone rule. Either way the kid/parent has a choice.
People have forgotten that the motto of the VHSL is equitable and fair play. Whatever the rules they must be followed and severe consequences given for non-compliance. If you do this schools, teams, and parents will not risk little Fred or Lucy's opportunity for the gold at the end of the rainbow.
Respect everyone's opinion on this.
Many years ago coaches were not allowed to coach AAU, travel, and rec league teams, but surprisingly the same people/parents (soccer, baseball, and softball) who had the rules changed are the same ones griping now. I do not believe coaches should create Club teams and funnel the players to the schools that hire them. We have to draw a line somewhere and in my opinion this is it.
I get the opportunity argument, but if these type of programs draw all the college coaches and the players need this level of exposure to get opportunities then do we really need high school sports at all?
I have been in the sports game a long time as a player coach and official. I know how recruiting works and it's cutthroat. I seen kids helped tremendously while others have been used and thrown away like garbage.
In my opinion, the best option for high school sports is to make kids play in the zone they live in or have one open division where school districts who allow students to go wherever they desire (magnate schools and open enrollment) can compete against equitable competition. The rest of the divisions play by the zone rule. Either way the kid/parent has a choice.
People have forgotten that the motto of the VHSL is equitable and fair play. Whatever the rules they must be followed and severe consequences given for non-compliance. If you do this schools, teams, and parents will not risk little Fred or Lucy's opportunity for the gold at the end of the rainbow.
Respect everyone's opinion on this.
I think it's a pretty clear cut you need to live in that school zone to play a sport there. If a parent physically moves 3 times for their kid to transfer 3 time then great let them have at it. Show physical proof that you live in that location and unlimited transfers would be fine because we know statistically majority of people can't just move for a high school sports opportunity.
Any idea how one would go about proving that occurred and applying a consequence? Wouldn’t it be easy for people to be dishonest and avoid any consequences? If it’s not enforceable, what would the use be in having the rule at all?
I can see the argument others have made about following the coach, etc. But it opens a HUGE pandoras box, which in turn causes these issues we are seeing at Hayfield and the resulting conversations.
I certainly get the whats best for the kid thing and I absolutely respect that and on the surface can't argue that. And I even understand the rule of the homeless kids.
BUT... There has to be some kind of regulations with this stuff to me. If the kid moves to the area, then they are good to me. I have mixed feelings on the paying tuition thing, only because who is regulating that.
Aside from the Hayfield situation, I still feel the same in areas that have any type of "open enrollment/can choose at ANY time what school they attend". You don't have that in all areas of the state, so that absolutely is an advantage. I won't even pretend to know all the rules/circumstances/and this and that speciality schools, etc. but having even the ability to choose a school at any time creates a situation that isn't available other places.
The one thing that I will say against the whats best for the kid (i.e. following coach), is yes it may be beneficial for THOSE kids, what about the ones that it effects negatively, whether that be the kids that lose opportunities because the kids came to that schools, or even the kids from other locations that are effected by it? Why are we not concerned for them as much? Basically, why is one kids "best for" more important than anothers?
As far as the Hayfield situation specifically and these being his kids because he coached them since youth, well then if the most important and best thing for the kids was to play for him, then why didn't he get a coaching gig where they all started? Because whether the kids were complicit or not, the situation now is NOT GOOD for them. Because of the situation, we are now shining a negative light from some on the kids. And now all of these kids have lost an opportunity to continue to play this year.
We can say that this situation would never happen in our area so we don't need to discuss it, but I am sure we would ALL be up in arms if this happened at a rival school. If you would be fine with this happening at your biggest rival truthfully, then more power to you, but if you wouldn't (no matter how far fetched that is), then you are working with a double standard.
I certainly get the whats best for the kid thing and I absolutely respect that and on the surface can't argue that. And I even understand the rule of the homeless kids.
BUT... There has to be some kind of regulations with this stuff to me. If the kid moves to the area, then they are good to me. I have mixed feelings on the paying tuition thing, only because who is regulating that.
Aside from the Hayfield situation, I still feel the same in areas that have any type of "open enrollment/can choose at ANY time what school they attend". You don't have that in all areas of the state, so that absolutely is an advantage. I won't even pretend to know all the rules/circumstances/and this and that speciality schools, etc. but having even the ability to choose a school at any time creates a situation that isn't available other places.
The one thing that I will say against the whats best for the kid (i.e. following coach), is yes it may be beneficial for THOSE kids, what about the ones that it effects negatively, whether that be the kids that lose opportunities because the kids came to that schools, or even the kids from other locations that are effected by it? Why are we not concerned for them as much? Basically, why is one kids "best for" more important than anothers?
As far as the Hayfield situation specifically and these being his kids because he coached them since youth, well then if the most important and best thing for the kids was to play for him, then why didn't he get a coaching gig where they all started? Because whether the kids were complicit or not, the situation now is NOT GOOD for them. Because of the situation, we are now shining a negative light from some on the kids. And now all of these kids have lost an opportunity to continue to play this year.
We can say that this situation would never happen in our area so we don't need to discuss it, but I am sure we would ALL be up in arms if this happened at a rival school. If you would be fine with this happening at your biggest rival truthfully, then more power to you, but if you wouldn't (no matter how far fetched that is), then you are working with a double standard.
Why tho? What’s wrong with a kid going somewhere to better themselves to have a chance at a scholarship to school??
@CountryClubJoesSecretAlias so what your saying is that it's ok for the County of Fairfax or any locality for that matter to force taxpayers to fund the education of non residents?
I worked for a judge for over twenty years who refused to change legal custody for the sole purpose of education and extracurricular activities. His decisions were upheld each time the cases were appealed, because it was 1. It's illegal to force county/city residents to pay for services rendered to non residents and 2. because a change in custody should be related to the said childs health and welfare.
Not sure about North Carolina, but this is the law in VA and most states that abide by the Uniformed Child Custody Act.
I worked for a judge for over twenty years who refused to change legal custody for the sole purpose of education and extracurricular activities. His decisions were upheld each time the cases were appealed, because it was 1. It's illegal to force county/city residents to pay for services rendered to non residents and 2. because a change in custody should be related to the said childs health and welfare.
Not sure about North Carolina, but this is the law in VA and most states that abide by the Uniformed Child Custody Act.
I’ve been around education and coaching for over 50 years. Seen a lot of things happen with kids wanting to earn the scholarship mom or dad wanted for them. Often times these moves did not materialize. Parents blamed the coaching staffs failing to realize that less than 10% high school kids participate in college athletics. Now we move from one district to another because a coach does. Not to many parents can make that move. If job related or some other reason a kid moves, then he or she should be allowed to participate for the new school. Heck out here in East Tennessee/Southwest Virginia kids have crossed state lines for years to participate in a school’s athletic programs. But in this rural area, no one cares. I think the solution to a lot of these issues, coaches should be in the classroom as a teacher or education related jobs. Not a security guard or SRO. I realize there’s a crunch for coaches wanting to work in the classrooms with all the pressure on teaching jobs. But if you like or love the sport you coach, a way can be found. Hell some of old coaches did it for over 30 plus years. It’s just in the DNA. Don’t know all the facts of the issue going on down in NOVA. But from what I can deduct is there’s a coach who thinks he’s Nick Saban or Vince Lombardi. Doesn’t want to take responsibility for his actions, accept responsibility for what’s happened, and move on. Get on his damn high horse and ride off into the sunset. On the way pickup those administrators who promoted his actions, turned their heads, and thought high school athletics is college athletics. Just the thoughts of an old retired coach and teacher who likes sitting by the fireplace, watching football and basketball games while sipping on a sweet drink with his ole friends named Jack, George, or Jim. 😂😂😂
Exactly...I mean...nothing was "dishonest" about the Hayfield situation...until more information started to unfold. This situation will serve as a model of "WHAT NOT TO DO"...truthfully.
Actually, they do care...you just don't hear about as much because the number of fans attending those other sports are MUCH SMALLER in numbers. They care, and it's discussed...you just have to be involved in those smaller sports to realize.
What matrix is used to determine that a student athletes chances INCREASE at securing a scholarship by moving to another school? There have been too many instances to name of athletes getting full rides while playing on teams that had terrible W/L records.
The only people making the loudest noise about "free transfers" are the fans from schools that have an established program with a winning tradition. Why is that? Win at any cost? Worried that one day there may be a slight dip in talent from the home-grown pool?
It was just a few years ago there was an article on VAPREPS that spoke about recruiters spending more times at CAMPS and less time at Friday night games...so I don't buy the "increased chances"....Camps and training camps that parents are actively a part of are just as important.
I'm sorry, but I think it's a weak argument.
Open enrollment or controlled open enrollment. They have it in Forsyth County. Basically lets you choose a school outside your zoned attendance area. I'm sure you're more knowledgeable regarding the laws. Not in my wheelhouse.
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Absolutely nothing. They just have to do it within the confines of the rules in place. If they do it otherwise, it’s called cheating.
For example, you can’t tell me how a good kid zoned for 0-10 Kecoughtan could not benefit football wise going 2 minutes up the road to 11-0 Phoebus. Kecoughtan actually had a couple players this year that could play college ball but no one will know because of how bad the program is as a whole. These kids are raw talent that need to be coached up and that’s not happening at these losing programs.
If you can’t see the bigger picture and think it’s all about winning rings then idk what to tell you. Most kids can’t afford the camps you speak of so they have to depend on their film and coaches to get them places…and at a bad program they’ll have neither.
I agree 1000%. If we are truly about the kids then no one should see anything wrong with transfers if done legally.
I'm not completely disagreeing with you...HOWEVER........for YEARS NOW....I MEAN YEARS, it's all about the CAMPS, that's where these kids are discovered, it's where they're discovered. NOW SUDDENLY, there's a possible recruiting scandal and camps aren't "it"...make it make sense. The contradictions are interesting. I can't help but question the narrative. I'm cynical like that. I'm also open minded to having a real discussion about it. WHY is different now? MOST of these camps keep slots available based on financial needs. It's rarely a player is turned away.
Regardless....camps or no camps. If a player is transferring....there are very SPECIFIC guidelines laid out to ensure that eligibility requirements aren't violated. Keep yourself clean. Keep it off social media. Keep it in house. No Comment, IS A COMMENT. No one is owed an explanation as to why a kid transfers. Make sure it's LEGIT....suit up and take care of business on the Grid Iron. People are going to talk...ALWAYS. Just handle yourself properly. A lot of LESSONS learned here...if anyone was paying attention.
And I'm sure EVERY transfer ENHANCED his recruiting exposure...it had to, otherwise, he wouldn't have bothered....right?
This is an extreme example and you know it. This is not what I’m referring to. There is obviously a deeper problem with that situation.
I’m not up here guessing what’s going on…I’m telling you what’s going on. I’ve sponsored over 100 kids in the past 20 years. Money is tight right now in most households and a lot of parents can’t afford to run the camp circuit during the summer. So they rely on game film and colleges coming to games because they’re at a program that draws college interest already.
I’m just curious what area of the state are you from?
757...for almost 40 years. Been a faithful fan and follower of all things PD and BRD, old York River District...I call Smithfield home. I played high school sports (multiple sports) at King William, football for Coach Roger Brookes, who taught us how to be model citizens FIRST.
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moral turpitude
noun
moral tur·pi·tude-ˈtər-pə-ˌtüd, -ˌtyüd
1
: an act or behavior that gravely violates the sentiment or accepted standard of the community
Not as easy for some folks...you have to have a conscience to understand what this means.
You probably have not noticed this. I attribute my noticing to the mental illness giving to me by another VaPreps poster. You have never complained about a losing team full of transferred players no matter if they have 1 illegal transfer or 10. If Hayfield was the same losing Hayfield from last year they would not be that concerned and your level of expertise would be null and void. Jealousy is real. If Darryl Overton was a loser you would talk crap about him losing but you would not stand for anyone questioning you, yours or your connections. Questionable transfers is nothing new. Since the meteoric rise of private schools high school recruiting has gone global. The first step to reigning it in is that the VHSL must end their relationship with the Catholic Church and their member schools by not allowing any competition between those schools and Virginia public schools. Keep it civil.
