Having watched lots and lots of hudl film, I will say high schools refs often make some funny calls for the home team. In general, you can almost throw a flag on every play in HS, and for most of a game they keep it pretty even. However I have seen that in critical moments, the refs get a bit more picky on the away team. I have been resolved to just chalking it up to part of the game for the away team. But from time to time you see some really questionable stuff. I'll give an example from the EV/Serando game. I am not looking to get into a back and forth about the EV/Sherando game, it was a good game for most of it. The example was down by 2 scores (I think starting the 4th) EV was driving down the field. EV had a player false start, a flag was thrown (but they did not blow the play dead). The false start was obvious. The play finished with an INT. The refs got together and waived the flag off. I was watching the game Sunday night on TV (Culpeper TV network was at the game) and was very surprised that you could actually hear the ref tell the Sherando sideline that it was an EV false start and we waived it off. I have never seen that. The play was a dead play. Oddly enough, In game film against I think Martinsburg, there was a blatant block in the back on Sherandos first score (I think) right in front of the Ref right at the ball carrier, there was no missing it. The odd thing is it looks like the same guy who waived off the false start. You see that all the time so maybe no big deal, but it certainly had me thinking, how do these guys get graded, how does the VHSL put things in place to keep the play as even as possible. So to be clear, I am really just wondering how they chose the refs and if they grade them. Not trying to put in question any result.
How are refs chosen and is there a review process?
- Thread starter EVcyc
- Start date
Games are usually assigned by the local association leaders and I believe that the coaches/admins provide feedback on every game.
I don't believe that the VHSL is involved in any way. Might be wrong on that part.
I don't believe that the VHSL is involved in any way. Might be wrong on that part.
I honestly don't know how they are graded by their own officiating associations, but in sending film through Hudl to the NC Officials Association I did see where there are some associations in VA that have Hudl to look at film. I think this is a great idea to look at film and make corrections so that these refs don't make the same mistakes.
I agree. It should be important enough that the adults involved in the game are doing their best to make it right. The teenagers bust their butts from August till the end of the season, then they bust their butts in the off season. I wonder how many coaches send film in or feedback to those associations. Why wouldn't the VHSL be involved? Aren't they ultimately responsible for governing the games? No matter where you are home or away the stands are always chirping about the refs. After 4 years of watching my son play, there are even refs you recognize and think here we go, this guy is bad. It goes the other way too. There are very good refs you recognize. Those are the guys who take a minute to talk to the players about this or that on the play, helping them understand the call. I like seeing that.
I know that they do grade the refs. The guy who is graded the worst ends up sitting next to me in the press box running the clock. I can tell you that nobody wants to be the ref on the clock. I have found the Winchester Officiating Association(or whatever its called) to be very good. Now, the refs in West Virginia, not so much.
I would imagine that the VHSL is involved in working with the various associations for contracts but I can't imagine that they are involved in policing which refs are good or bad. This isn't the NFL, you can't have a full-time job of someone watching and interpreting referee calls 40 hours per week, it would be an extreme waste of money.
The last thing that anyone should do is respond to the chirping fans in the stand. The majority of fans have no idea what the rules are and their investment in their children is too strong for them to even possibly be objective.
For example, I am quite certain that every time I've seen a pass interference call made, someone from the stands (and sometimes the sideline) will object by yelling "the pass was not catchable". The problem with that, you see, is that is only a college and pro rule. It is NOT a high school rule.
Fans, as a group, routinely complain about things that they are not educated enough to comment upon.
I was in the stands for a scrimmage, where one parent did not know what district our team was in, what classification we were in, what district our main rival was in, or that we were in the same classification as that rival. This did not slow down his commentary on plays called by the coaches or flags thrown by officials.
Hey EVcyc - I have a couple of thoughts here. Now I have no idea what happened on the play you were referencing but I do know that a lot of times if the infraction occurs in the backfield/behind the line of scrimmage then the call will be illegal motion/illegal shift. On an illegal motion/illegal shift the play usually resumes and the penalty is called following the play. I can't tell you how many times I've seen an offensive team have a big play and it gets called back for an illegal motion/illegal shift and the fans want to know why the play was not blown dead. It happens frequently - so if the EV player crossed the line of scrimmage prior to the snap then it should be a false start and the play is blown dead. If the action happened in the backfield - then I can see it being an illegal shift/motion and the play resumes. As far as the refs waving off the flag - the proper thing to do would be to call the illegal shift/motion and say the defense declined the penalty. I have seen a lot of times though where the refs just wave off the flag because they know the defense is going to decline - not saying it's right but it happens. Once again - just a thought.
Second point I would like to make is that the job of the refs is to let the kids on the field decide the outcome of the game. In the situation you highlighted above - if the false start had no bearing on what happened on the play - then who really cares? The defense made a play - you have to live with it. You can go back through any high school game and say this happened and that happened but the only time you can really point to bad officiating is when the officiating is obviously one-sided. I wasn't at the Lake Taylor game - but that could be an example of one-sided officiating. Just out of curiosity EVcyc - do you have the box score from the Sherando-EV game? I would like to see if the game was indeed an example of one-sided officiating.
Second point I would like to make is that the job of the refs is to let the kids on the field decide the outcome of the game. In the situation you highlighted above - if the false start had no bearing on what happened on the play - then who really cares? The defense made a play - you have to live with it. You can go back through any high school game and say this happened and that happened but the only time you can really point to bad officiating is when the officiating is obviously one-sided. I wasn't at the Lake Taylor game - but that could be an example of one-sided officiating. Just out of curiosity EVcyc - do you have the box score from the Sherando-EV game? I would like to see if the game was indeed an example of one-sided officiating.
When refs. are assigned to a game, you never know who is kin to who and what their intentions are. Nephews, nieces and cousins are not on the list of people that refs are not supposed to do games for.
In support of the skill and knowledge an official needs, and often needs instantly, go over to the "Ask the Official" board and scroll back through the threads. There are a whole lot of "no s***", "I didn't know that" moments in those threads. I've had the esteemed pleasure of communicating with White Hat. He has to be the Dean of all football officials in this state. What a wonderful and professional gentleman. An example that all official should strive for.
And let me also add this out of respect. With nearly 25,000 post, FBRef may be the actual Dean. One of the most enjoyable parts of the "Ask the Officials" thread is the sincere and authoritative answers that are posted.
NoVa, I don't have a box score, and like my original post referenced, I thought it was a good game, that included the refs as a whole. The circumstances of the play I talked about was a false start. The reaction of the crowd was funny. First we were like crap, that's five yards, then yelling about the false start on EV (funny to hear). I let it go until I watched the broadcast and heard them (refs to sideline) say it was a false start, they didn't say it was illegal motion or shift. I'm not sure I agree with what you say about the one sided comment. I have seen it more often that the game is changed by the refs in critical moments not one sided or not. Also, refs make calls all the time away from the play that have no bearing.. see every dumb block in the back 30 yards behind the runner. Refs can't really use the logic of "it has no bearing" they may not know (especially on a false start). I didn't mention it earlier, but the drive prior to that drive, EV was driving and at Sherando's 25ish, we had a solid running gain called back for a holding call (the penalty which is called so often at many different degrees). On film the hold was ehh, and wasn't an impact to the play as the runner was by that defender. But it's a call I can live with.
I am pretty sure I have the box score form the EV game , I will get it up when I get home today. But I know we were penalized a considerable amount more than EV. We have had issues with penaltys this year at times.
Funny. I tried to not make it about the game, but most of you can't help yourself. It is true with the players that played that night, Sherando was the better team. One night doesn't mean year though...
That's correct. Most everything is kept at the association level, only being escalated to the VHSL in larger scale issues. Feedback does come from coaches and admins, but I can say in the association I'm involved with the more important feedback comes from the white hat at each game in his game report.
Below is a link to a game report for an association in California. VHSL Association reports aren't the same, but it gives you a good general idea.
http://www.inlandfootballofficials.com/site/mobile?url=http://www.inlandfootballofficials.com/GAME_REPORT.php#2912
Edit: Seems you can only access that site from a mobile device. If you can't use a mobile phone to view it, basically this game report lists the teams/score, game situation notes, comments on each team/coaches, then comments on each position official (what they did well, what they could do better, if they're playoff caliber, and their name). Obviously your white hat is going to be a well-experienced official, so their take on performance evaluations is usually about as good as it will get.
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