Hungry Like The Wolf

[SpartanOfYore]

Which teams in 4A go into the 2016 season as the hungriest? Which have gone the longest without a playoff win, or even without making a playoff appearance? And which schools have the longest streaks of playoff futility. and have tasted the least playoff success?

This thread is in no way intended to mock or shame any of these schools. Hopefully, it will spur conversation around the reasons for a particular school's struggles, how those challenges might be overcome, which schools might stand a chance of turning things around this year, or any surprises on any of the lists. So, with a nod to Duran Duran, let's see who'll be on the hunt this fall.....

[All records courtesy of VHSL-Reference.com; based on the playoff era,1970 to 2015.]

Most Seasons Since Most Recent Playoff Win
(School, year of last playoff win, seasons since last playoff win;
* denotes a school that has never won a playoff game)

*Churchland, first football season prior to 1970, 46
*Midlothian, first football season prior to 1970, 46
Woodrow Wilson, 1991, 24
Caroline, 1993, 22
*Jamestown, first football season 1998, 18
Charlottesville, 1999, 16
Deep Creek, 2001, 14
Fauquier, 2002, 13
*Heritage (L), first football season 2003, 13
William Fleming, 2003, 12
*Freedom (SR), first football season 2006, 10
E. C. Glass, 2005, 10
Huguenot, 2005, 10


Most Seasons Since Most Recent Playoff Appearance
Among schools that have played a minimum of ten seasons
(School, year of last playoff appearance, seasons since last playoff appearance)

Midlothian, 1986, 29
Woodrow Wilson, 1991, 24
Deep Creek, 2004, 11
Freedom (SR), none prior, 10
Carroll County, 2010, 5
Harrisonburg, 2011, 4
Park View (St), 2011, 4
Bassett, 2012, 3


Most Consecutive Playoff Losses - Current

Churchland, 8
Fauquier, 7
William Fleming, 7
Bassett, 6
Charlottesville, 6
Deep Creek, 4
E. C. Glass, 4
Grafton, 4
Great Bridge, 4
Powhatan, 4
Pulaski County, 4
James Wood, 4


Fewest All-time Playoff Wins
Among schools that have played a minimum of ten seasons

Churchland, 0
Freedom (SR), 0
Heritage (L), 0
Jamestown, 0
Midlothian, 0
Caroline, 1
Denbigh, 1
Dominion, 1
Carroll County, 2
Millbrook, 2
Smithfield, 2
James Wood, 2

 

[shauntclair]

You really did a lot of work on these last posts. Nice job. Facts and interesting points of view. Thanks.

 

[DinwiddieProud]

Really neat stuff there my friend. You spent a lot of time putting this and your other related post together. Thank you.

I was shocked to see how downtrodden Midlothian has been. I would never have guessed their stats were that bad.

I sure hope ole One Man can get the Black Knights off of the "consecutive playoff loss" list.

Again, great job.

 

[SpartanOfYore]

Thanks. Midlothian is the poster child for "downtrodden." Been around forever, and a 0-1 all-time playoff record.

 

[DinwiddieProud]

Yes sir. And though not a hot bed of talent like the tidewater area, the greater Richmond area isn't exactly a wasteland. I wonder if there is a factor, or a common denominator that helps explain their lack of playoff prowess?

One quick example, Monacan is very similar in demographics to the Midlothian area. In fact, they are neighboring high schools in the same school system. But, man what a difference in athletics.

 

[SpartanOfYore]

Yes sir. And though not a hot bed of talent like the tidewater area, the greater Richmond area isn't exactly a wasteland. I wonder if there is a factor, or a common denominator that helps explain their lack of playoff prowess?

One quick example, Monacan is very similar in demographics to the Midlothian area. In fact, they are neighboring high schools in the same school system. But, man what a difference in athletics.

Has Midlothian ever had success in any sport?

 

[DinwiddieProud]

Has Midlothian ever had success in any sport?

Well, I would have said yes, "absolutely", before your revelation of their football failures. But now, I would have to see their athletic records before I would say that. It's hard for me to believe that they have not had considerable success in many sports. Which would then beg the question of, "why such a poor record in football"?

 

[tommythecpa]

Has Midlothian ever had success in any sport?

Midlothian has a good girls basketball program and is decent in some boys sports. They draw from an affluent area.

 

[SpartanOfYore]

Midlothian has a good girls basketball program and is decent in some boys sports. They draw from an affluent area.

So that underscores DP's question: why has Midlothian been relentlessly unsuccessful in football, decade after decade?

 

[tommythecpa]

They have had some decent teams. The Central Region never expanded playoffs. I think they would have been very close if not making them.

 

[DinwiddieProud]

Tommy, my unsubstantiated assumption would be that the Midlothian community just doesn't have the devotion to the football program like many areas do, (actually, most do). Sports that compete for the same athletes may be taking their toll on the talent pool. Tennis, volleyball, golf, soccer, swimming, maybe Lacrosse, even non-athletics like band, theatre, & debate, etc., diminish the availablity of potential football players.

Again, I have zero facts to base this on. But, my personal belief is that if your school community is not a big proponent of the football program, and you have a lot of kids in the school district that are from affluent families, this combination could possibly be an explination. And by affluent kids, I only mean that many may have grown up being exposed to other than traditional stick and ball sports. As a reverse example, how many Lake Taylor kids grew up taking tennis lessons or playing golf at "the country club"?

As a further illustration of the difficulty in growing a football program that may have historically been a "back seat" activity, consider this fact. Virtually every sport is available year round now. If "Little Johnny" has an interest in soccer, there are camps, travel teams, rec. league teams, and on and on, that allow him to participate without interruption, year around. Most youth athletics are similar. Unfortunaly, if "Little Johnny" wants to grow and develope in his chosen sport, he has to avail himself to the various opportunities. Because, "Little Billy" and all of his other competition for playing time, is.

I suspect that the Midlothian area has well established programs in most sports for even the youngest kids, which "locks" them in long before much exposure to football. It's hard to expand the interest in developing a competitive football program when you are faced with factors such as these. Or so I would believe.

 

[shauntclair]

Really neat stuff there my friend. You spent a lot of time putting this and your other related post together. Thank you.

I was shocked to see how downtrodden Midlothian has been. I would never have guessed their stats were that bad.

I sure hope ole One Man can get the Black Knights off of the "consecutive playoff loss" list.

Again, great job.

Actually, I like One-Man a lot but I think the Charlottesville area of concentration should be stopping the 12 consecutive years under .500 thing taken care of. Most of those years, well under .500. But I do give them some props for not playing a weanie schedule. Everyone has some on the calendar they should win but the Black Knights have to earn the rest.

 

[shauntclair]

Tommy, my unsubstantiated assumption would be that the Midlothian community just doesn't have the devotion to the football program like many areas do, (actually, most do). Sports that compete for the same athletes may be taking their toll on the talent pool. Tennis, volleyball, golf, soccer, swimming, maybe Lacrosse, even non-athletics like band, theatre, & debate, etc., diminish the availablity of potential football players.

Again, I have zero facts to base this on. But, my personal belief is that if your school community is not a big proponent of the football program, and you have a lot of kids in the school district that are from affluent families, this combination could possibly be an explination. And by affluent kids, I only mean that many may have grown up being exposed to other than traditional stick and ball sports. As a reverse example, how many Lake Taylor kids grew up taking tennis lessons or playing golf at "the country club"?

As a further illustration of the difficulty in growing a football program that may have historically been a "back seat" activity, consider this fact. Virtually every sport is available year round now. If "Little Johnny" has an interest in soccer, there are camps, travel teams, rec. league teams, and on and on, that allow him to participate without interruption, year around. Most youth athletics are similar. Unfortunaly, if "Little Johnny" wants to grow and develope in his chosen sport, he has to avail himself to the various opportunities. Because, "Little Billy" and all of his other competition for playing time, is.

I suspect that the Midlothian area has well established programs in most sports for even the youngest kids, which "locks" them in long before much exposure to football. It's hard to expand the interest in developing a competitive football program when you are faced with factors such as these. Or so I would believe.

this is a LOT of assumptions here but you're entitled to an opinion.

 

[DinwiddieProud]

this is a LOT of assumptions here but you're entitled to an opinion.

I invite anyone to provide a more validated rationale.

 

[shauntclair]

I invite anyone to provide a more validated rationale.

Or, like yours, less validated. All opinion and assumption. You're entitled but this one has a bad smell to me. Sorry.

 

[salemfan32]

Has Midlothian ever had success in any sport?

They have a pretty good track program.

 

[BleedingNavy]

I checked the VHSL State Championship record book and the following may provide some insight regarding Midlothian's team athletic success. I did not research individual championships.
Girls Basketball-3 appearances one state title
Boys Cross Country- 5 state titles, 4 runner up finishes
Girls Cross Country- 6 state titles 1 runner up finish
Boys Soccer- 2014 runner up finish (One of the top teams in Richmond)
Softball- 1 state title, one runner up finish (Prior to 2010 they were dominant in the Central Region)
Boys Tennis-3 state titles, one runner up finish
Girls Tennis, 3 state titles, 4 runner up finishes
Boys Volleyball- 1 state title, one runner up finish (Always a contender)
Girls Gymnastics-1975 runner up finish
Boys Track-2014 Indoor and Outdoor runner up finishes
Girls Track-2014 Indoor runner up finish

They have recently changed from club to VHSL lacrosse and are fairly decent.

As previously stated they do well in the "non-revenue" sports. Midlothian has produced several talented baseball, football and basketball players. I remember in 1981 they were the American legion baseball national champion runner up. Beat Post 3 from Roanoke for the Virginia State title.

Hope this helps with the debate. lol.....

 

[tommythecpa]

I nominate Bleeding Navy as the official 4A researcher.

 

[BleedingNavy]

I nominate Bleeding Navy as the official 4A researcher.

Just a quick glance at the vhsl website.

 

[shauntclair]

If we're going to have this type of discussion, I think you should limit the time frame to the last decade. If not, I could throw in a team like Spotsylvanai who had incredible success in many sports over their history. Multiple State Championships. But they are currently and unfortunately irrelevant.

And comparing things from different eras also seems moot to me. Too much has changed.

 

[shauntclair]

I nominate Bleeding Navy as the official 4A researcher.

If he likes doing it, I second the nomination.

 

[BleedingNavy]

During lunch, I thought it would be interesting to see how many current 4a schools had won a state championship in any team sport male/female (last ten years). There are 52 teams in 4a and 32 different schools have won at least one title. 18 from the West and 14 from the East. Jamestown tops the east with19 total state titles and Loudon County leads the west with 12 total state titles.

I may be a bit off, but by my count John Handley, Harrisonburg, James Wood, Rock Ridge, John Champe, GW Danville, Bassett, William Byrd, Carroll County, Pulaski County, Churchland, Deep Creek, Woodrow Wilson, Denbigh, Heritage-NN, Smithfield, Caroline, Eastern View, King George, and Huguenot have not won a state title in any sport in the past ten years.

 

[SpartanOfYore]

During lunch, I thought it would be interesting to see how many current 4a schools had won a state championship in any team sport male/female (last ten years). There are 52 teams in 4a and 32 different schools have won at least one title. 18 from the West and 14 from the East. Jamestown tops the east with19 total state titles and Loudon County leads the west with 12 total state titles.

I may be a bit off, but by my count John Handley, Harrisonburg, James Wood, Rock Ridge, John Champe, GW Danville, Bassett, William Byrd, Carroll County, Pulaski County, Churchland, Deep Creek, Woodrow Wilson, Denbigh, Heritage-NN, Smithfield, Caroline, Eastern View, King George, and Huguenot have not won a state title in any sport in the past ten years.

Good work!

Carroll County won 4A softball last year; that might not have yet been added to the VHSL record book. That was the first team sport championship in the Cavs' history.

In Rock Ridge's defense, they're just babies, the school having opened last fall. John Champe is still pretty new as well, though as solid as their program seems overall, I'm mildly surprised they haven't won anything yet. Hard to see them being shut out much longer, although the move up to 5A will be challenging.

I'm going to guess that five or six of Loudoun County's titles have come on the volleyball court.

 

[tommythecpa]

During lunch, I thought it would be interesting to see how many current 4a schools had won a state championship in any team sport male/female (last ten years). There are 52 teams in 4a and 32 different schools have won at least one title. 18 from the West and 14 from the East. Jamestown tops the east with19 total state titles and Loudon County leads the west with 12 total state titles.

I may be a bit off, but by my count John Handley, Harrisonburg, James Wood, Rock Ridge, John Champe, GW Danville, Bassett, William Byrd, Carroll County, Pulaski County, Churchland, Deep Creek, Woodrow Wilson, Denbigh, Heritage-NN, Smithfield, Caroline, Eastern View, King George, and Huguenot have not won a state title in any sport in the past ten years.

GW and Fleming have been AAA boys basketball runners up in the past 10 years.

 

[tommythecpa]

Midlo won the Wachovia cup for athletics for 2015. You can find a lot of information about sate final fours in VHSL state championship programs at vhsl.org publications.

 

[shauntclair]

During lunch, I thought it would be interesting to see how many current 4a schools had won a state championship in any team sport male/female (last ten years). There are 52 teams in 4a and 32 different schools have won at least one title. 18 from the West and 14 from the East. Jamestown tops the east with19 total state titles and Loudon County leads the west with 12 total state titles.

I may be a bit off, but by my count John Handley, Harrisonburg, James Wood, Rock Ridge, John Champe, GW Danville, Bassett, William Byrd, Carroll County, Pulaski County, Churchland, Deep Creek, Woodrow Wilson, Denbigh, Heritage-NN, Smithfield, Caroline, Eastern View, King George, and Huguenot have not won a state title in any sport in the past ten years.

I think this confirms BN as Head of the 4A Research Division.

 

[DinwiddieProud]

Midlothian does have a player listed in the Rivals TOP 100. Jermani Brown, 5'11" 175lb cornerback, is on the list at #50. Jermani has received no less than 11 offers from some of the best colleges across the country.

 

[shauntclair]

Midlothian does have a player listed in the Rivals TOP 100. Jermani Brown, 5'11" 175lb cornerback, is on the list at #50. Jermani has received no less than 11 offers from some of the best colleges across the country.

Very best of luck to this young man.

 

[BleedingNavy]

Good work!

Carroll County won 4A softball last year; that might not have yet been added to the VHSL record book. That was the first team sport championship in the Cavs' history.

In Rock Ridge's defense, they're just babies, the school having opened last fall. John Champe is still pretty new as well, though as solid as their program seems overall, I'm mildly surprised they haven't won anything yet. Hard to see them being shut out much longer, although the move up to 5A will be challenging.

I'm going to guess that five or six of Loudoun County's titles have come on the volleyball court.

You are right Spartan. The pitcher for Carroll County is plain nasty. They should win another state championship.

 

[cutnjump]

If we're going to have this type of discussion, I think you should limit the time frame to the last decade. If not, I could throw in a team like Spotsylvanai who had incredible success in many sports over their history. Multiple State Championships. But they are currently and unfortunately irrelevant.

And comparing things from different eras also seems moot to me. Too much has changed.

Personally, I think whoever initiates the discussion can define the frame of reference as they consider appropriate. Sometimes a decade might be useful, sometimes even a shorter period might be more appropriate, however, when evaluating the performance of a school in terms of state championships my own personal opinion is that a long view of history is very useful. Also, things change over the years but, comparing different eras can still be useful as long as perspective is maintained. There are a lot of factors which go in to sustaining a program over a long period of time and some of those factors are not necessarily in control of the school. I cannot speak to the specifics of Spotsylvania's decline but, I do not believe their lack of current success carries any more weight in evaluating the program than their entire history. The lack of current success does carry more weight in predicting possible future performance. Schools that were historically state contenders have been affected by new schools siphoning off students, economic changes shifting the demographics of the school and, probably the most prevalent, a change in administration mindset and/or coaching reduces the focus on sports. As a person who has watched high school sports in this state for over 50 years I would say I do not believe high school sports in Virginia follow what has transpired in college and professional sports. By that I mean, I believe a pretty good case for bigger, faster, stronger can be made at the college and pro levels today as compared to their predecessors, however, I do not believe the case is as strong at the high school level in this state.

 

[tommythecpa]

Personally, I think whoever initiates the discussion can define the frame of reference as they consider appropriate. Sometimes a decade might be useful, sometimes even a shorter period might be more appropriate, however, when evaluating the performance of a school in terms of state championships my own personal opinion is that a long view of history is very useful. Also, things change over the years but, comparing different eras can still be useful as long as perspective is maintained. There are a lot of factors which go in to sustaining a program over a long period of time and some of those factors are not necessarily in control of the school. I cannot speak to the specifics of Spotsylvania's decline but, I do not believe their lack of current success carries any more weight in evaluating the program than their entire history. The lack of current success does carry more weight in predicting possible future performance. Schools that were historically state contenders have been affected by new schools siphoning off students, economic changes shifting the demographics of the school and, probably the most prevalent, a change in administration mindset and/or coaching reduces the focus on sports. As a person who has watched high school sports in this state for over 50 years I would say I do not believe high school sports in Virginia follow what has transpired in college and professional sports. By that I mean, I believe a pretty good case for bigger, faster, stronger can be made at the college and pro levels today as compared to their predecessors, however, I do not believe the case is as strong at the high school level in this state.

That is a great commentary. I guess one reason I like it is that I have also followed VA hs sports since 1964. For those who have not been around as long, the economic changes have really affected most of the state. Also back then there was a core group of athletes that would play at least 2 of the 3 major sports.

 

[shauntclair]

Personally, I think whoever initiates the discussion can define the frame of reference as they consider appropriate. Sometimes a decade might be useful, sometimes even a shorter period might be more appropriate, however, when evaluating the performance of a school in terms of state championships my own personal opinion is that a long view of history is very useful. Also, things change over the years but, comparing different eras can still be useful as long as perspective is maintained. There are a lot of factors which go in to sustaining a program over a long period of time and some of those factors are not necessarily in control of the school. I cannot speak to the specifics of Spotsylvania's decline but, I do not believe their lack of current success carries any more weight in evaluating the program than their entire history. The lack of current success does carry more weight in predicting possible future performance. Schools that were historically state contenders have been affected by new schools siphoning off students, economic changes shifting the demographics of the school and, probably the most prevalent, a change in administration mindset and/or coaching reduces the focus on sports. As a person who has watched high school sports in this state for over 50 years I would say I do not believe high school sports in Virginia follow what has transpired in college and professional sports. By that I mean, I believe a pretty good case for bigger, faster, stronger can be made at the college and pro levels today as compared to their predecessors, however, I do not believe the case is as strong at the high school level in this state.

You make a number of good points, especially when it comes to the economic and Administative factors but, in general, we disagree here. Frankly, I think your suggestions of change are more a basis to confirm long term history as bearing little relevance on today's HS Football. I also believe that today's HS Football players are definitely bigger, faster, stronger and more athletic than 10 years ago.

Good argument though. Thanks.

 

[ClarkeFan83]

I also believe that today's HS Football players are definitely bigger, faster, stronger and more athletic than 10 years ago.

Definitely agree.

 

[cutnjump]

That is a great commentary. I guess one reason I like it is that I have also followed VA hs sports since 1964. For those who have not been around as long, the economic changes have really affected most of the state. Also back then there was a core group of athletes that would play at least 2 of the 3 major sports.

Economic changes have shifted the balance of power to the more populated regions, particularly NOVA, and away from the more rural and/or depressed areas of southside and southwest Virginia, particularly in the highest classifications. To clarify the NOVA statement, Richmond and Tidewater have always been around although the areas have strengthened but, the explosive growth in NOVA, has now generated powerhouses in the higher classifications that didn't even exist in earlier times.

I always enjoyed watching the multi-sport athletes. The best generally played two and lots of times even 3 sports but, seems to be few and far between these days except for smaller schools where numbers almost demand the best athletes play multiple sports. Lots of those type athletes in days gone by in the old Western District. Halifax, Glass, Lane and the one you are probably most familiar with GW(names like Willis, Brumfield, Curry, Lewis, to name just a few) all competed year round and added another edge to the rivalries. I know the current thinking is specialization, however, I believe that specialization, probably coupled with improper strength training and physical conditioning, leads to a lot of the repetitive stress type injuries seen in athletes today, whereas, changing sports as the seasons allowed muscles to recover and rest depending upon the sport.

 

[cutnjump]

You make a number of good points, especially when it comes to the economic and Administative factors but, in general, we disagree here. Frankly, I think your suggestions of change are more a basis to confirm long term history as bearing little relevance on today's HS Football. I also believe that today's HS Football players are definitely bigger, faster, stronger and more athletic than 10 years ago.

Good argument though. Thanks.

I don't disagree that they bear little relevance to today in terms of predicting the future as I conceded but, I do disagree they are irrelevant when evaluating a program from a historical perspective. As far as the other argument, I would be happy to line up 1974 Woodbrige, 1982 GW Danville, multiple Hampton Crabber squads, and many others that I believe would stack up very favorably to the bigger, faster, stronger argument. Lot of very good kids playing football in Virginia these days but, the likes of Russell Davis, Ken Sheets, Dwight Stephenson, Kenny Easley, Allen Iverson, Ronald Curry, etc., etc. would still be elite even by today's standards. Just my opinion but, the quality of play in the three major boy's sports(football, basketball and baseball) is not significantly superior, if superior at all, to the quality of play 10 or more years ago.

 

[BleedingNavy]

This is a great discussion (bigger, faster and stronger); however, after reviewing state statistics I found myself wondering. Read and decide for yourself.

Bigger: Todays linebackers are yesterday's offense and defensive lineman. Jeez, some of todays quarterbacks are bigger than the offensive lineman I played with in the early eighties. NFL statistics show very little deviation in rb's; however, o lineman, receiver height, and quarterback size have increased through the years. Defensively, the NFL shows a marked increase in size at all positions. Is this a fact, trend, or necessity?

Faster: I thought about how I could compare this element (speed) and realistically I cant. I did research the VHSL boys track records and was surprised by how many sprint, hurdle and long distance records were recorded prior to ten years ago ( I realize hand timing may have something to do with it). While reviewing the all time fastest 40 times at the NFL combine (electronic only) 6 occurred before 2006 and only 5 have occurred in the past five years. 10 players have faster times than the current record (Bo Jackson, Darrell Green Michael Bennett and Deon Sanders to name a few), but they were hand timed. Personally, I think the offenses being used and the increase in speed of the current lineman, tight ends, safeties and linebackers lead us to say the current athlete is indeed faster.

Stronger: With today's weight training programs, nutrition, and off season workouts the strength element is a given. "Country Strong" may still work, but not over the long haul.

Technology has played a major role in the above factors as well. When comparing todays equipment (shoes, pads, helmets) one will quickly realize just how heavy the equipment of old was. Current helmets weigh between, 3 to 5 pounds as opposed to 6 to eight pounds of yesteryear. Todays pads are extremely lighter and the shoes weigh 1/2 pound each. The studs of yesteryear weighed that much.

 

[cutnjump]

This is a great discussion (bigger, faster and stronger); however, after reviewing state statistics I found myself wondering. Read and decide for yourself.

Bigger: Todays linebackers are yesterday's offense and defensive lineman. Jeez, some of todays quarterbacks are bigger than the offensive lineman I played with in the early eighties. NFL statistics show very little deviation in rb's; however, o lineman, receiver height, and quarterback size have increased through the years. Defensively, the NFL shows a marked increase in size at all positions. Is this a fact, trend, or necessity?

Faster: I thought about how I could compare this element (speed) and realistically I cant. I did research the VHSL boys track records and was surprised by how many sprint, hurdle and long distance records were recorded prior to ten years ago ( I realize hand timing may have something to do with it). While reviewing the all time fastest 40 times at the NFL combine (electronic only) 6 occurred before 2006 and only 5 have occurred in the past five years. 10 players have faster times than the current record (Bo Jackson, Darrell Green Michael Bennett and Deon Sanders to name a few), but they were hand timed. Personally, I think the offenses being used and the increase in speed of the current lineman, tight ends, safeties and linebackers lead us to say the current athlete is indeed faster.

Stronger: With today's weight training programs, nutrition, and off season workouts the strength element is a given. "Country Strong" may still work, but not over the long haul.

Technology has played a major role in the above factors as well. When comparing todays equipment (shoes, pads, helmets) one will quickly realize just how heavy the equipment of old was. Current helmets weigh between, 3 to 5 pounds as opposed to 6 to eight pounds of yesteryear. Todays pads are extremely lighter and the shoes weigh 1/2 pound each. The studs of yesteryear weighed that much.

Very good analysis. Would be interesting to compare average height, weight, 40, bench press etc., by position and see which positions have the overall largest increases. My perception is that percentage wise that distinction would probably go to QB's and WR's but, the linemen have a built in advantage in sheer absolute numbers probably. The hand versus electronic timed distinction is also important and that raises another thought. I wonder if the average measurements are available for draft combine classes as that might be at least an indicator at the pro level. I think bigger, faster, stronger definitely applies at the pro and college levels but, that perception is not as strong at the high school level in Virginia just looking at the field and program listings. As an aside, I believe the PH-Roanoke teams of your era would beat the more recent versions every day of the week and twice on Sunday, size notwithstanding.

 

[DinwiddieProud]

Great reporting Navy. And that just about seals the deal, you should be declared the "Head of Research for 4a"!
All in favor say "Aye"!

 

[DinwiddieProud]

Very good analysis. Would be interesting to compare average height, weight, 40, bench press etc., by position and see which positions have the overall largest increases. My perception is that percentage wise that distinction would probably go to QB's and WR's but, the linemen have a built in advantage in sheer absolute numbers probably. The hand versus electronic timed distinction is also important and that raises another thought. I wonder if the average measurements are available for draft combine classes as that might be at least an indicator at the pro level. I think bigger, faster, stronger definitely applies at the pro and college levels but, that perception is not as strong at the high school level in Virginia just looking at the field and program listings. As an aside, I believe the PH-Roanoke teams of your era would beat the more recent versions every day of the week and twice on Sunday, size notwithstanding.

I don't know about the present era of PH players, but if teams back in his day, all had the same, bull headed, never quit attitude that Navy had, (and has), they could give the Super Bowl champs a run for their money.

 

[shauntclair]

I don't disagree that they bear little relevance to today in terms of predicting the future as I conceded but, I do disagree they are irrelevant when evaluating a program from a historical perspective. As far as the other argument, I would be happy to line up 1974 Woodbrige, 1982 GW Danville, multiple Hampton Crabber squads, and many others that I believe would stack up very favorably to the bigger, faster, stronger argument. Lot of very good kids playing football in Virginia these days but, the likes of Russell Davis, Ken Sheets, Dwight Stephenson, Kenny Easley, Allen Iverson, Ronald Curry, etc., etc. would still be elite even by today's standards. Just my opinion but, the quality of play in the three major boy's sports(football, basketball and baseball) is not significantly superior, if superior at all, to the quality of play 10 or more years ago.

You put up a number of excellent players that, I agree, would still be elite today. I also agree that history says something about a program like the Packers or the Steeler or the Celtics. The expectations are always higher by the fans. Even the Raiders are specialized in their self image. But none of those early teams that set the tone can play with today's squads. For this reason, I see long history as a nice drive down memory lane but not really relevant. iMO.