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Discussion in 'Class 4A (Fall)' started by hamspear, Dec 28, 2017.
As I originally said, the talent at JMU and other top FCS schools will suprise you.
The point is there’s more of those caliber players on the field at a UVA or VT any given year and you’ll understand. By your logic UVA should wallop JMU as they have 4 draft prospects. A top 10 ILB/S/QB according and a top 20 DT or DE. It’s a matter of playable depth and JMU doesn’t have a strong enough recruiting footprint to warrant the consideration having a talent filled roster in reference to this argument.
*complains about strawman*
*makes a strawman*
Also A+ work just making up what I said. I never at any point said FCS was an empty, talentless void of football and I'll sit back and wait while you prove that I did.
Also lol that list is literally proof that elite talent is nothing but an anomaly in the FCS. There's plenty of NFL players coming out of the Sun Belt but somehow those teams still lose by 60 points to the schools who schedule them for cupcakes. There's like 3 programs who are anything but marginally represented in the NFL on that list and their numbers are on par with, again, Sun Belt-level teams.
By your logic I can say that D3 Mount Union, who by the way doesn't need to lean on the crutch of scholarships like the FCS, with 2 NFL starters to their record is obviously reflective of supreme talent that flows through D3, the talent level of which will "surprise you".
This is the second time you have come back to this thread after saying you were done. Its almost like you never keep your word. Add that to making illogical posts that are never based off of any facts or stats and it is hard to imagine that you are an educator of any type.
Your point, again, runs counter to logic... if GW has all that talent they proves even more that they are underachieving.
Im surprised anyone is surprised how badly UVA does in football. I gave up on UVA football years ago an have picked up the LU flag.
Let us review. Hokie said that JMU was made up of 2 star recruits and transfers who he called D1 washouts. Now In my mind the washouts comment implies that they were never good enough to play D1 (forgive me if I took that the wrong way). I pointed out that JMUs transfer running back had proven he could play D1 by starting for Georgia Tech and rushing for 143 yards and a TD in a Georgia Tech win over the Hokies. As to Hokies two star comment I gave examples of FCS recruits that turned out to be obviously 5 star players ( Wentz, Haley, Rice and others).
JMU is LITERALLY made up of at-best 2* recruits (I'm sure you can find a recruiting site that has a couple of their scholarship kids as low-level 3*) and FBS transfers. I don't know how you can even begin to argue otherwise since a trip to any recruiting site will tell you their classes, like all FCS classes, are almost entirely unranked or 2* because that's the level of kids who make up the overwhelming majority of all FCS rosters. Like flat out, FCS is composed chiefly of kids who could not get FBS scholarships. DII and DIII are made up of kids who could not get FCS scholarships. It's how the world works. You think the guys playing in the CFL are there because they didn't want to play in the NFL?
And yes, those are washouts. Those are kids who couldn't hack it at the school they originally chose to be at and seek playing time elsewhere because they have been passed over by more talented players (barring when kids fail out of school or get arrested and booted which is a different kind of washout).
Just because the tiniest handful of FCS players develop into NFL stars does not mean FCS is some vast landscape of unmined talent waiting to be named to the NFL Hall of Fame. They are, again, primarily kids who were not good enough to get offers to better schools. Kids do not choose to play football for JMU over Alabama, I'm sorry to break that news to you. It's the exact same reason not every 2* S turns out to be Kam Chancellor. Wow, VT found a kid whose only other offer was to VMI and he turned into an All-Pro, it doesn't mean every 2* S VT finds turns out to be an All-Pro, they probably turn out to be indicative of their ranking.
Like I said, using your logic I can point to the multiple NFL WRs produced by DIII Mount Union and tell you they're representative of all 242 DIII schools and clearly an untapped mountain of talent waiting to be mined by the NFL except the reality is DIII is primarily composed of kids who often weren't even all-division talent at their tiny, middle of nowhere high school and just wanted to play the game a few more years.
Hokie, for your amusement:
here they are, the best 10 FCS wins over P5 teams in college football history:
JUST MISSED THE CUT
Richmond over Virginia (2016),
Georgia Southern over Florida (2013)
Sacramento State over Colorado (2012)
Jacksonville State over Ole Miss (2010)
William and Mary over Virginia (2009)
Northern Iowa over Iowa State (2007)
Montana State over Colorado (2006)
Villanova over Rutgers (2002)
The Citadel over Arkansas (1992)
Montana over Oregon State (1986)
Grambling State over Oregon State (1985)
Drake over Iowa State (1985)
10. THE CITADEL 23, SOUTH CAROLINA 22 (2015)
Say what you want about this South Carolina team, with all of its 2015 turmoil and Steve Spurrier's quitting in the middle of the year. This team had been a SEC powerhouse for several years and was within seven points of beating Kentucky, Texas A&M, Tennessee, The Citadel and even national runner-up Clemson and played Florida to within 10 points.
The Gamecocks' record was terrible (3-9) but it easily could have been an 8-4 bowl team, too. The Citadel proved it was an FCS power with this performance, putting the last Spur in the coffin (pun intended).
9. PORTLAND STATE 24, WASHINGTON STATE 17 (2015)
Nobody in 1,000 years could have predicted this one. It's one thing when NDSU or James Madison or Jacksonville State knock you off, it's another when a 3-win Portland State team (in 2014) comes in and knocks off a very strong Wazzu team.
The Vikings just hung in there and hung in there and got new head coach Bruce Barnum his first career victory. The Cougars went on to win 9 games and beat Miami (Fla.) in a bowl, with two of their other losses coming to No. 8 Stanford and No. 24 Cal. Portland State would go on to destroy North Texas 66-7 later in the year, the largest margin of victory ever for an FCS over and FBS.
The Mean Green promptly fired their coach following the Portland State loss.
8. YOUNGSTOWN STATE 31, PITTSBURGH 17 (2012)
Pittsburgh made a bowl game and beat No. 13 Virginia Tech and No. 19 Rutgers and gave No. 3 Notre Dame a tough time in a triple-overtime loss, but it couldn't come within 14 points of the Penguins in the season opener.
Youngstown State went into Heinz Field and ruined the party for 41,000 paying Panthers fans.
7. UC-DAVIS 20, STANFORD 17 (2005)
At the time of this upset, Stanford wasn't quite what it has become in the Jim Harbaugh and David Shaw years, but it was still a decent program. This loss effectively knocked the Cardinal out of bowl contention, and even though Stanford won 4 games in the Pac-12 and took No. 6 Notre Dame and No. 8 UCLA to the wire before falling, it couldn't overcome the I-AA Aggies.
They only have one other all-time win over an FBS opponent--San Jose State.
6. FURMAN 17, GEORGIA TECH 17 (TIE) (1986)
Furman had a lot of fun tormenting ACC teams and South Carolina back in the 1980s, when it won two national championships in the I-AA ranks. I pick the Paladins' tie with Georgia Tech this year because it knocked the Yellow Jackets out of bowl eligibility and also the Rambling Wreck had three games they lost by 7 points or less.
This Georgia Tech team could easily have been 9-2 and in the New Years Bowl Game hunt, but the Furman game sort of knocked it off balance.
5. FAMU 16, MIAMI 13 (1979)
It is Miami's only loss to an FCS opponent in 19 games all-time, and it came in legendary coach Howard Schnellenberger's first season at the helm--prior to the national championship teams he built to set up that incredible 'Canes decade of the 1980s.
FAMU also was a I-AA power at the time of this game, possibly its biggest heyday depending on which generation of Rattlers you ask. That year, Miami beat a nationally ranked Penn State team on the road and also beat state rival Florida.
4. EASTERN WASHINGTON 49, OREGON STATE 46 (2013)
This Oregon State team came into the game ranked No. 25 in the AP poll and following this loss to EWU it went on to win six straight games and became bowl eligible, beating Boise State in the Aloha Bowl on Christmas Eve.
It also gave Pac 12 powers Stanford and Oregon fits that year, falling by 8 and 1 respectively. But when the season opened, the Beavers couldn't give Eastern Washington fits.
3. JAMES MADISON 21, VIRGINIA TECH16 (2010)
James Madison was supposed to lose by 32.5 points if you asked Vegas, and the past two times they'd played they'd lost by a combined 90-0. Not this time though.
Virginia Tech was ranked No. 13 by the AP poll but it didn't matter. Some fans described it as a bigger victory than when the Dukes won the 2004 FCS national title. I guess that's up to debate, but this was a big one.
2. NORTH DAKOTA STATE 23, IOWA 21 (2016)
We already broke it down above, that yes the Bison are clearly the best team in the FCS right now, but then BR-20 Iowa is clearly one of the top teams in the Big Ten, too. The win this weekend was monumental in so many ways. It proved for the third time this year that NDSU can rally and beat outstanding programs, and it proved that no venue scares the Bison.
This is the sixth straight FBS win for the Bison, an incredible number because most of those wins have been over P5 teams in the Big Ten and the Big 12, not teams from the MAC.
Prior to this, NDSU's biggest win was its 2013 victory over Kansas State--which finished 8-5 and beat Michigan in a bowl game.
1. APPALACHIAN STATE 34, MICHIGAN32 (2007)
The Mountaineers were certainly an elite FCS team when they pulled this off, but one has to understand that the Wolverines had not hit their full Rich Rod/Brady Hoke doldrums yet.
This Michigan team was No. 5 in the AP poll when they played in the season opener in 2007, and it went on to finish 9-4 with wins over Heisman winner Tim Tebow's Florida team (which won national titles in 2006 and 2008) and also a Top 10 Penn State team. It also throttled Notre Dame 38-0 that year. Bottom line? This was a very strong Michigan team.
App. State beat Wake Forest six times between 1988 and 2000, but this Michigan win was better than all six of those WF wins combined.
You will probably really like this article and video
Hokie I am sure you want to relive this:
Not sure what kind of back-and-forth you two are having or what the point of it is as I haven't seen all the comments... You show that JMU game but it said in the article you posted that they were outscored 90-0 the previous two meetings. If the argument is which team has more talent according to the all the recruiting services is it VT by a mile and even UVAs recent awful classes are higher ranked than JMU.
Also, VT was awful that game against JMU and would have lost to almost any team in the country that day. That game was less than 5 days after the huge Monday night kickoff showcase game with Boise State where they lost a heartbreaker.
He's conceding because he can't do anything but cherrypick. Remember Jerry Rice was FCS 30 years ago! Also Joe Flacco and Carson Wentz!
If the FCS is so talented why do they not at the very least break even with the FBS then? I mean it's so easy, every decade there's a star NFLer amongst the thousands upon thousands of FCS players why can't they turn that into tons of wins over the FBS?
I am sure you remember my quote. I said JMU s talent would suprise you. Never, not once did I say it was equal. But just like the talent might suprise you, those FCS teams will suprise the FBS teams on occasion.
Go Hokies Go Dukes
You went on this grand crusade and at no point did I ever say FCS was devoid of talent, I simply said it wasn't like FBS but the reality is simple, just like when last year JMU won the title and an average-at-best UNC completely embarrassed them.
You said much more than that: you said all the transfers were "washouts" implying that they weren't good enough to play FBS. When I gave you examples where your description was obviously incorrect you doubled down. You pointed out that JMUs recruits we're two star I pointed out that some of those two star kids turn out to be five star players. I believe you have attributed to me the post of some other posters. I have never said that Virginia techs roster and James Madisons roster were equal. All I have said is their talent level would suprise many. The combination of FBS transfers and two star recruits that develop into great players can be quite effective and dare I say it ""suprising"
Kids who play at FBS schools and end up at FCS are washouts, that's the way it works. If you can't hack it at one level and have to drop down to an unquestionably inferior level to the one you were at you washed out. You're the one attaching a pejorative slant to it, not me.
You were also the person who responded to me when I was specifically talking about recruits and when my point (that JMU's best recruit would be VT's worst and tied with UVA's worst) is absolute face, easily proven with a couple of clicks on this very website.
You're trying to take this pedantic, cherrypicked approach and act like anything that happens at JMU or the rest of the FCS is "special" or some other such hogwash. If FCS kids were better they wouldn't be in the FCS, that's the way it works. Kids occasionally slipping through the cracks or developing late is not indicative of some robust failure of evaluation on the part of all FBS coaches who, by the way, are FBS and not FCS because they're better at their jobs.
If all you say is the unquestionable gospel on this subject, which you obviously believe, then FBS schools should never, under any circumstances lose to a FCS school. I mean two star athletes at best, washouts, and inferior coaching should never beat a power 5 school. NEVER. I mean your arguments are so sound, air tight and infallible there should never be a SURPRISE. But wait, there have been suprises. Why? One--- because you know less than you think you do and two---the talent level on some FCS schools WILL SUPRISE YOU
Hooooooos your daddy. 78-52 UVA in the Cassell tonight. Such an embarrassment to VA basketball. Number one score % in the nation but it came up against the number D in the nation. Just getting the annual argument started.
UVA isn’t as strong this year IMO. My VCU Rams gave em problems and we’re pretty bad.. Certainly not judging off of that one game of course. It’s a down year in VA basketball between VCU, Tech and UVA but no doubt, UVA is the best of the 3.
UVA better than last year, not as good as 2015. They need more inside scoring. This particular team is dangerous. Can be very good from three and play great defense. Could be sweet 16 or better team.
I hope you are right. Though I will say that teams like the 2015 UVA team are few and far between. That was a really good team. This year’s team has potential but certainly no 2014 or 2015 or 2016 Cavs team. Guy is an animal and Ty Jerome looks like he’s ready to take the next step. Wilkins needs to wake up. Don’t think he scored tonight until mid 2nd half.
Wilkins value is not in scoring. He plays great defense, rebounds, and makes all the hustle plays. This years team weakness is quite simple, if you are a jump shooting team , what do you do when you have a bad night shooting? They lack a consistent inside game. They do everything else quite well .
UVA will be fine. SouthbottomU I hope you are right about the sweet 16 or higher. A lot of people wrote them off with all the senior transfers. Those transfers saw the writing on the wall. They looked back at the bench and saw a decrease in there playing time. I do agree the weakest part of there team is there inside game.
Wilkins leads the nation in plus minus. Any team 13-1 and raned #8 in the nation is pretty good. We'll see what we're really like Saturday with UNC coming to town.
UVA was not ranked in the top 25 preseason. All that showed was that many hoops writers are lazy. They gave no notice to the redshirt players or the graduate transfer. They also did not evaluate the improvement of Guy, Jerome, Hall, Salt, Mamadi, and Wilkins. This team is better than last year's, but not as good as Brogdon, Gill, Toby, Anderson and that bunch
I could not agree more.
Who cares about basketball, second most sport nobody cares about besides Soccer . This is a football board, perhaps take this conversation to a basketball forum
While I dont care about any sport close to as much as football, basketball is a great sport, and A LOT of people care about it.
AND, sorry man but you are WRONG, this ISN'T A FOOTBALL board, this is a Virginia high school sports board. And this thread is posted on the 4a Fall board. The boards aren't separated by sport anymore
Apparently you don't like basketball and you think people must agree with you, They don't
Awww true VT fan. Only one sport that exists. Discount all others that you are no good at. Oh and this is actually a high school football board. Not mad at you. I really enjoy your posts.
I actually used to like basketball , when there wasn’t a whistle for a foul every 5 seconds, you got guys faking fouls and falling down like they got ran over by a middle linebacker . I like the bill Lambeer days!! Haha but I would say I follow the wizards closely and am a fan of them and wish them success.
Lambeer was punched twice in the head in a Celtics playoff game and it was a regular old foul.
Yeah can you imagine Lebron playing against the Bad Boys (Pistons)
LeCryBaby James you mean He wouldn’t have lasted 5 minutes back when REAL basketball was being played.
Again, and now a different poster, this ISN'T just a football board, this is a Virginia high school sports board, and this thread is posted on the 4a Fall board, not football.
I knew I liked you @DanvilleSportsHead
4a football board. Not mad at you.
It's not though. It initially was because the one guy was talking about how bad other sports are, but Va Preps has 6a-1a Fall, 6a-1a winter, 6a-1a spring. So while 99% of the talk is football, it is in fact ALL fall sports.
So in summary, the is NO football board on here at all, doesn't matter the class, only football separated is recruiting