Team A punts to Team B. It is s bad punt but crosses the LOS. Team B touches the ball. Team A recovers the ball, but the ball does not get past the first down marker. Does Team A retain the ball or does the ball go over to Team B because Team A recovered the ball without crossing the first down mark?
Punt Question
- Thread starter UJoking
- Start date
If the receiving team is first to touch the ball beyond the neutral zone (LOS) then the ball will belong to the team in possession at the end of the down and it will be 1st down.
If, as I've seen happen, the ball crosses the LOS but bounces or is blown back and touched behind the line, it's got to be advanced beyond the line to gain for the kicking team to retain possession. That touching by the receiving team means nothing. It doesn't matter that the ball crossed the line and back untouched, it only matters where it was when it was touched by the receiving team.
If, as I've seen happen, the ball crosses the LOS but bounces or is blown back and touched behind the line, it's got to be advanced beyond the line to gain for the kicking team to retain possession. That touching by the receiving team means nothing. It doesn't matter that the ball crossed the line and back untouched, it only matters where it was when it was touched by the receiving team.
White Hat pretty much covered it. If the kick is touched by R (the receiving team) first and the touching happened past the line of scrimmage, then whomever has possession of the ball at the end of the down gets a new series of downs.
The only way K (the kicking team) can get a first down if the kick ISN'T touched by R beyond the LOS is if K:
a.) recovers the kick BEHIND their LOS, and
b.) gains enough yards to reach the line to gain
Some other notes on K and kicks:
1.) First, the important definition of what "kick" means: at the high school level (I can't speak for the higher levels) it is the status of the ball from the time the ball is struck by the foot or lower leg and lasts until the ball is possessed by someone. So you could have all 22 players on the field TOUCH the kick and it would still be a kick until someone actually possesses it. Wherever you hear or see an official use the word "kick", this is the timeframe they are talking about.
2.) Any touching of the kick by R behind the LOS is ignored.
3.) K cannot ever advance a kick they recover beyond their LOS. Once they gain possession beyond the LOS, the ball is dead and gets awarded to K or R depending on whether R touched the ball first.
4.) ANY kick that crosses R's goal line is a touchback unless K touched the kick sometime prior to the touchback (in that case, R can take the ball where K touched it, or take the touchback). It doesn't matter whether R muffed the kick first. This is different from the NCAA and NFL and the lack of knowledge about this difference creates unnecessary grief from the players, coaches, and stands.
This post was edited on 10/31 1:06 PM by Fadamor
The only way K (the kicking team) can get a first down if the kick ISN'T touched by R beyond the LOS is if K:
a.) recovers the kick BEHIND their LOS, and
b.) gains enough yards to reach the line to gain
Some other notes on K and kicks:
1.) First, the important definition of what "kick" means: at the high school level (I can't speak for the higher levels) it is the status of the ball from the time the ball is struck by the foot or lower leg and lasts until the ball is possessed by someone. So you could have all 22 players on the field TOUCH the kick and it would still be a kick until someone actually possesses it. Wherever you hear or see an official use the word "kick", this is the timeframe they are talking about.
2.) Any touching of the kick by R behind the LOS is ignored.
3.) K cannot ever advance a kick they recover beyond their LOS. Once they gain possession beyond the LOS, the ball is dead and gets awarded to K or R depending on whether R touched the ball first.
4.) ANY kick that crosses R's goal line is a touchback unless K touched the kick sometime prior to the touchback (in that case, R can take the ball where K touched it, or take the touchback). It doesn't matter whether R muffed the kick first. This is different from the NCAA and NFL and the lack of knowledge about this difference creates unnecessary grief from the players, coaches, and stands.
This post was edited on 10/31 1:06 PM by Fadamor
Re: another punt question:
It's recoverable by anyone. Now we're getting into a wild area that makes the scrimmage kick (punt or field goal) the most adventuresome part of the game for players and officials.
1. If K is first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the LOS, that is the spot of first touching. R then can touch it and no matter where the play ends or which team is in possession, R can take the ball at the spot of first touching.
UNLESS, there is a foul by R, at which case first touching does not apply.
Plus, there can be multiple spots of first touching. If K touches it in 5 places before R touches it, then there are 5 places R gets to choose from. (Technically there should be bean bags marking all 5 spots, but no official carries 5 beanbags and I've never seen this happen in reality) OR, if R recovers the ball they have the option of taking the result of the play.
If there is a foul by R, all bets are off, but that would take so long to write everyone would give up and go read about Brett favre before reading it all.
It's recoverable by anyone. Now we're getting into a wild area that makes the scrimmage kick (punt or field goal) the most adventuresome part of the game for players and officials.
1. If K is first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the LOS, that is the spot of first touching. R then can touch it and no matter where the play ends or which team is in possession, R can take the ball at the spot of first touching.
UNLESS, there is a foul by R, at which case first touching does not apply.
Plus, there can be multiple spots of first touching. If K touches it in 5 places before R touches it, then there are 5 places R gets to choose from. (Technically there should be bean bags marking all 5 spots, but no official carries 5 beanbags and I've never seen this happen in reality) OR, if R recovers the ball they have the option of taking the result of the play.
If there is a foul by R, all bets are off, but that would take so long to write everyone would give up and go read about Brett favre before reading it all.
Re: another punt question:
I think you are saying that if ball is first touched by K, then R can make an attempt to possess it, without worry of losing possession (unless of course he gets it, takes off and fumbles) You wonder why more don't try to swoop in on plays like that and catch the K's off guard. Guess he would need to be sure it had touched K first...that would bring out the beanbag right?
I think you are saying that if ball is first touched by K, then R can make an attempt to possess it, without worry of losing possession (unless of course he gets it, takes off and fumbles) You wonder why more don't try to swoop in on plays like that and catch the K's off guard. Guess he would need to be sure it had touched K first...that would bring out the beanbag right?
Actually... if K touched the scrimmage kick first; then R gets it; takes off; and fumbles the ball away, R can go back and STILL take the spot of first touching as long as R didn't foul after they recovered the ball AND no other fouls are accepted during the down. It's ALMOST like a free play as long as they don't foul (or accept any fouls by K).
I don't see it happen very often. First touching comes into play only a couple of times a season. My guess is most coaches would rather just teach their players to get away from the ball in that situation than mess with teaching a situation where they could benefit. But yes, after first touching there is really no reason the receivers shouldn't give it a try.
A receiver back for a punt would probably never notice if K touched the kick unless it greatly changed the kick's direction or speed. Even then he probably has a ton of things going through his young mind other than, "This is a freebie play!" - foremost would be whether he should attempt to recover the kick or listen to the 20 people on the sideline yelling "POISON!" at him.
That strategy didn't work for this team. An 86 yard punt (wind was at the kicker's back). I'll bet they wished there had been first touching on that play!
This post was edited on 11/3 9:25 AM by Fadamor
40 Yard Punt rolls an additional 40 yards
True, but there's also no reason why the coach couldn't know the rulebook, but many of them still don't. I think they'd have to learn the rules before they could teach them to their players. And then they'd have to coach the kids on the difference between a first-touching beanbag and a "end of kick" beanbag. Somehow, I don't see it happening.
This post was edited on 11/4 4:32 PM by Fadamor
I have asked a few B-Ball coaches if they have read a rule book and their reply is I do not even have one. If a call is questioned and a coach tells me that, I just chuckle and walk off.
Yeah AtlBlue and BigJohn are two definite exceptions to my statement (and why I said "many" of the coaches rather than "all" of the coaches). As for the REST of the coaches...Originally posted by FBRef:
I bet Atl Blue teaches it!
This post was edited on 11/5 7:35 AM by Fadamor
