Reading the playoff format is crazy

[mike salem]

There are so many different formats to determine how many make it and how they advance to the finals. Does anyone else think there should be a uniform way to do this? There is a 16 team straight seed, a 12 seeder with top 4 getting byes, a pod system, some cross-bracket. I'm sure I forgot something, but geez, seriously could they make it more complicated?

 

[shauntclair]

The VHSL set a standard but the Regions have the right to change certain aspects of it. 4A West, for example, differs more than any other in VA but 100% a Regional decision. There are certainly reasons for that and there are assumptions folks can make about the "why's" but it's all speculation. As with any political decisions, it's always about power, money and advantage. Who has the most to gain from this configuration? Then you can ID who's actually running the show in 4A West.

 

[CRF4Dan]

I don't honestly mind the conference pairings that will limit some of the travel some teams were doing in the early rounds of the playoffs. Like you say however, the fact that we have some that have 12 teams, 16 teams, that's just silly. It ought to be uniformed.

 

[DinwiddieProud]

I don't honestly mind the conference pairings that will limit some of the travel some teams were doing in the early rounds of the playoffs. Like you say however, the fact that we have some that have 12 teams, 16 teams, that's just silly. It ought to be uniformed.

I was hoping Matt Gilliam or some other math whizz would crunch the numbers and tell us if the odds are better or worse for any given team making the final four in a region, using the 4a west vs east playoff formats.

 

[shauntclair]

I was hoping Matt Gilliam or some other math whizz would crunch the numbers and tell us if the odds are better or worse for any given team making the final four in a region, using the 4a west vs east playoff formats.

I see this. A weak schedule gets you a top seed and a bye. Then you play a clearly lesser team in the next round. Win and you're in the final 4. Makes for a nice "looking" season.

 

[GilliamRatings]

I love, at the start of the playoffs, to look at the brackets and complete an analysis of each team's probabilities of advancing to the various rounds of the playoffs. With all the cross bracketing, I doubt I'll be able to do it. I used to be able to do one form and then apply it to all the brackets. No longer.

 

[GilliamRatings]

I was hoping Matt Gilliam or some other math whizz would crunch the numbers and tell us if the odds are better or worse for any given team making the final four in a region, using the 4a west vs east playoff formats.

Obviously regions that award byes are giving their best teams a slight advantage statistically, but the larger advantage comes from the fact that your players have one week to avoid injuries and recover from injuries. I am not a fan of byes.

 

[dringtuoti]

Shaun's - nothing has changed for the top seeds other than bye. A weak schedule and 10-0 still gets you a top seed and easier route. A #1 seed still has to play winner of 9/8, 2 still plays winner of 10-7..... A second round win doesn't get you in the final four it gets you in the final 8. Do you even read what you post sometimes??

 

[shauntclair]

Shaun's - nothing has changed for the top seeds other than bye. A weak schedule and 10-0 still gets you a top seed and easier route. A #1 seed still has to play winner of 9/8, 2 still plays winner of 10-7..... A second round win doesn't get you in the final four it gets you in the final 8. Do you even read what you post sometimes??

Always. That doesn't mean mistakes aren't made. By anyone. For example, per VHSL, only 12 go to the playoffs in 4A West with the top 4 getting byes. That leaves 8 in round 2. Unless my math is wrong or I read incorrectly, a 2nd round win leaves 4. That does seem an easier route to the Final, especially when you can get an extra week of healing time and play at least one squad you "should" beat. IMO. GL in 2015.

 

[dringtuoti]

Always. That doesn't mean mistakes aren't made. By anyone. For example, per VHSL, only 12 go to the playoffs in 4A West with the top 4 getting byes. That leaves 8 in round 2. Unless my math is wrong or I read incorrectly, a 2nd round win leaves 4. That does seem an easier route to the Final, especially when you can get an extra week of healing time and play at least one squad you "should" beat. IMO. GL in 2015.

Final four in the region? Like I said, the top seeds end up playing the same teams and many would argue that bye week in high school football doesn't help and may hurt.

 

[VaPrepsRod]

Final four in the region? Like I said, the top seeds end up playing the same teams and many would argue that bye week in high school football doesn't help and may hurt.

Most of the coaches who I have talked to over the years about the playoffs have said that they would rather not have a bye week (about 75% to 25%, informally)

 

[shauntclair]

Final four in the region? Like I said, the top seeds end up playing the same teams and many would argue that bye week in high school football doesn't help and may hurt.

Yes. A team with a bye only needs to win one playoff game to get to the final 4 in the West Region. I don't understand how you mean they're playing the same teams. Please explain. Yes, there is an argument that a bye week may hurt but in these cases, I think there is a significant advantage to the team with a bye.

I mean, can you actually see Salem losing at home to a MillBrook? They're about as lock as it gets for the final 4 and barely need to break a sweat doing it. Even the regular season schedule presents few challenges for the Spartans. At least they'll have to go through either Sherando or JF to get to the final so if it happens, they will have earned it.

 

[wikki]

I don't honestly mind the conference pairings that will limit some of the travel some teams were doing in the early rounds of the playoffs. Like you say however, the fact that we have some that have 12 teams, 16 teams, that's just silly. It ought to be uniformed.

I do not like it that a couple of them have only 12 and some have 16

 

[dringtuoti]

Yes. A team with a bye only needs to win one playoff game to get to the final 4 in the West Region. I don't understand how you mean they're playing the same teams. Please explain. Yes, there is an argument that a bye week may hurt but in these cases, I think there is a significant advantage to the team with a bye.

I mean, can you actually see Salem losing at home to a MillBrook? They're about as lock as it gets for the final 4 and barely need to break a sweat doing it. Even the regular season schedule presents few challenges for the Spartans. At least they'll have to go through either Sherando or JF to get to the final so if it happens, they will have earned it.

I don't understand how that is any different than pre-realignment and the previous 4 week playoff system (guess what, if you made playoffs you were in the final four of the region). The one seed still has to play the winner of 8/9, 2 seed the winner of 7/10, 3 vs 6/11, & 4 vs 5/12. They just don't have to go through the formality of a running clock the first round. It's no harder or easier than before. Salem didn't break a sweat last year getting into the final four in the region? Seriously, I don't know what your argument is. By the way, I've never heard anyone other than you refer to final four in terms of regional play.

 

[DEVILSLB99]

I don't understand how that is any different than pre-realignment and the previous 4 week playoff system (guess what, if you made playoffs you were in the final four of the region). The one seed still has to play the winner of 8/9, 2 seed the winner of 7/10, 3 vs 6/11, & 4 vs 5/12. They just don't have to go through the formality of a running clock the first round. It's no harder or easier than before. Salem didn't break a sweat last year getting into the final four in the region? Seriously, I don't know what your argument is. By the way, I've never heard anyone other than you refer to final four in terms of regional play.

If I recall correctly Woodgrove was taking it to Salem in the 2nd round, but got away from what was giving them succes. I know Woodgrove was ahead at halftime and might have even been up entering the 4th quarter. But they hardly broke a sweat.

Last year a #16 seed made it to the 3rd round in 3a and we only won our game with the 16 seed 28-0 last season. I don't like the fact that playoff formats arent universal but that's the vhsl doing.

 

[dringtuoti]

If I recall correctly Woodgrove was taking it to Salem in the 2nd round, but got away from what was giving them succes. I know Woodgrove was ahead at halftime and might have even been up entering the 4th quarter. But they hardly broke a sweat.

Last year a #16 seed made it to the 3rd round in 3a and we only won our game with the 16 seed 28-0 last season. I don't like the fact that playoff formats arent universal but that's the vhsl doing.

I don't like the fact that it isn't universal either but that isn't the VHSL - that's the regions. VHSL would have loved to but made concessions to get change - regions, conferences, districts wanted greater autonomy.

Salems 10 pt win over woodgrove would have happened under the 12 team format too. Again, the argument shaunty was making was the new format makes it a cakewalk and so much easier than any other year - which is false.

 

[shauntclair]

If I recall correctly Woodgrove was taking it to Salem in the 2nd round, but got away from what was giving them succes. I know Woodgrove was ahead at halftime and might have even been up entering the 4th quarter. But they hardly broke a sweat.

Last year a #16 seed made it to the 3rd round in 3a and we only won our game with the 16 seed 28-0 last season. I don't like the fact that playoff formats arent universal but that's the vhsl doing.

The VHSL had nothing to do with the setup. The 12 team setup and 4 byes was a Regional decision but I too wish it were the same for all.

Also, there will always be a few Cinderellas that pull an upset or two. Perhaps even more. The NCAA Basketball Tourney attests to that. But, in The vast majority of cases, the ugly chick rarely gets asked to the Ball.

 

[GilliamRatings]

I don't like that kids with the byes have one less week to get state records and such vs. kids from regions without byes.

 

[shauntclair]

I don't like the fact that it isn't universal either but that isn't the VHSL - that's the regions. VHSL would have loved to but made concessions to get change - regions, conferences, districts wanted greater autonomy.

Salems 10 pt win over woodgrove would have happened under the 12 team format too. Again, the argument shaunty was making was the new format makes it a cakewalk and so much easier than any other year - which is false.

I made no aguement it was a cakewalk. I never used the term cakewalk. The argument was a bye team would normally play a lesser team and therefore would most easily advance to the final four. Sorry, if you have to play one less game and get a week off, the road is easier. This is absolutely true but you would like to continue to be arbitrary just for arbitray's sake. That's fine. I won't argue the point anymore. You're entitled to your opinion.

I also said that anyone with a bye that gets to that final 4 would finally have to play legitimate teams to get the Liberty. In the end, they will have had to earn it.

The VHSL made no concessions. The Regions are autonomous in how they run their playoff system. The VHSL had nothing to do with it. And to clarify something you seem to be confused about. 4A West is a Region.

The playoffs will run, in week one:
12 v 5
11 v 6
10 v 7
9 v 8

In the West, it looks like Sherando, JF, Salem and Pulaski will be 1,2,3,4. At least for now and not in any particular order. Beware the teams from the Loudon County area. They won't be in the top 4 because of their schedules but they will be very dangerous at playoff time. Don't be surprised if one of them gets to to Liberty. John Champe is my dark horse to go.

 

[dringtuoti]

I made no aguement it was a cakewalk. I never used the term cakewalk. The argument was a bye team would normally play a lesser team and therefore would most easily advance to the final four. Sorry, if you have to play one less game and get a week off, the road is easier. This is absolutely true but you would like to continue to be arbitrary just for arbitray's sake. That's fine. I won't argue the point anymore. You're entitled to your opinion.

I also said that anyone with a bye that gets to that final 4 would finally have to play legitimate teams to get the Liberty. In the end, they will have had to earn it.

The VHSL made no concessions. The Regions are autonomous in how they run their playoff system. The VHSL had nothing to do with it. And to clarify something you seem to be confused about. 4A West is a Region.

The playoffs will run, in week one:
12 v 5
11 v 6
10 v 7
9 v 8

In the West, it looks like Sherando, JF, Salem and Pulaski will be 1,2,3,4. At least for now and not in any particular order. Beware the teams from the Loudon County area. They won't be in the top 4 because of their schedules but they will be very dangerous at playoff time. Don't be surprised if one of them gets to to Liberty. John Champe is my dark horse to go.

What are you talking about? You just repeated the playoff format that I stated earlier?

You posted earlier, a bye gets you a favorable round and win gets you in final four. You then put the word looking in quotation marks saying, "it would make for a nice "looking" season". Did I miss something, you were devaluing an accomplishment to what amounts to the state quarterfinals because the road was so much easier, which I refuted.

I spoke to several people and there was so much pushback from some schools for the new system, that the VHSL allowed the new regions to continue with some of their autonomy. Sounds like a concession to me in order to build greater consensus for the new system but you can call it whatever you'd like. I love this country.

 

[shauntclair]

What are you talking about? You just repeated the playoff format that I stated earlier?

You posted earlier, a bye gets you a favorable round and win gets you in final four. You then put the word looking in quotation marks saying, "it would make for a nice "looking" season". Did I miss something, you were devaluing an accomplishment to what amounts to the state quarterfinals because the road was so much easier, which I refuted.

I spoke to several people and there was so much pushback from some schools for the new system, that the VHSL allowed the new regions to continue with some of their autonomy. Sounds like a concession to me in order to build greater consensus for the new system but you can call it whatever you'd like. I love this country.

GL in 2015