"REF"LECTIONS ON 2010-11 SEASON

[CruFan13]

Well my favorite team was eliminated in the State Tournament last night in a heartbreaker. As far as the refs were concerned it was typical of the almost 30 games I have seen this year... inconsistent. This type of reffing is not bad in a game when there is clearly a better team, because the better team can rise above it, but in a tight playoff game, it is tough to watch.




In the first half, the home team built a lead, but a blatant missed call as a guard was dribbling down court and the opposing player grabbed him to stop his progress, really changed some of the dynamic of the game. Instead of the guard going to the line for a one and one, he didn't get the call, kept going and ended up being called for a questionable charge. So instead of shooting a one and one, or getting the "and one" call on the baseline, now he is in foul trouble.




Missed calls happen, I get that, but wow, it was pretty obvious the opposing player was grabbing the player to stop his progress to the basket. He was flatfooted, grabbed the players with both arms, stopped playing and waited for the ref to blow the whistle, and of course smiled when he didn't. It becomes sad.




In the second half, the visiting team, down by nine, didn't change their defense, but they clearly picked up their intensity and became more physical. The refs appeared to change the way they would call the game, and things that were fouls in the first half were now just good defense.




I have seen this plenty of times, and I don't blame the refs entirely. It is up to the team to rise to the level of play and they could have adapted better and maybe just started playing just as physical, but with two of their starters in foul trouble it is kind of risky, if you can't get a read on how the refs are really calling the game. I always feel for the players, when they can't figure out from one possession to the next what the refs are going to do.




Like stated in an earlier post, there was one ref who was making more calls than the others (I didn't count, but it was obvious), and he even made a call where he ran from one side of the court all the way to where another ref was right on top of a play to blow his whistle. It was on the far side of the court and the ref on top of the play clearly didn't see anything to call, and it seemed impossible that the other ref could see what he saw.




Unfortunately, the last controversy the refs caused was undone by some boneheaded players from the home team when they came off the bench during what they thought was a tussle, which caused a bench technical.




With 04.9 seconds left in the game, the home team player drove to the basket, and was fouled. The players got tangled up and the opposing player pulled him on top of him and wouldn't let him up. As he struggled to get up, the opposing player kicked him. Maybe the refs didn't see the whole thing clearly, but they called a double technical on the two players. The home team player hit his free throws, but the opposing team got two technical free throws for the players coming off the bench. Why the home team player got a technical is a mystery, but the bench players’ involvement makes the argument somewhat moot anyway.




I guess I am rambling, because the season is over. I have been involved in basketball for 30 years as a player, coach, stats guy and clock guy. I have never been a ref, because I know I don't have the skill set to make those calls on the fly. I see the fouls and infractions fine from where I sit, but I know there is a difference.




What disappoints me the most is that there are guys out there that should realize the same thing. Some of these guys should just turn in their whistles. I don't think anyone expects perfection from high school refs, but some level of consistency and a real understanding of their role in the game would be great.




It sucks to show up for a big game, see the refs and think, "Oh boy, here we go again!" There are some good refs out there for sure, but there are enough of the guys that think that they are bigger than the game, guys that are completely in over their heads and guys who you never know what they are going to do from one possession to the next.




I appreciate anyone who reads all this rambling, and if you made it this far, could someone answer a couple of questions for me:




-- Are refs evaluated during the season? Do they receive any feedback or punishments?




-- How are refs chosen for playoff games?




--What is the rule on smacking the backboard? In the gym where the game was played, if you smack the backboard it shakes considerably and affects the balls path. In this instance, and it happened earlier in the year as well, the layup is off the glass when the board is hit, shaking the rim and causing the ball to miss. Neither time was basket interference called.




Thank you for this forum, and good luck to all the remaining teams.
This post was edited on 3/2 11:33 PM by FBRef

 

[Hampton Roads 6]

I think your post will get deleted B-4 clock strikes midnight.

 

[White hat]

How are refs chosen? The VHSL finds the fnas who write the longest, most uninformed diatribes about officiating based and require them to join an association because clearly they have all the answers and know how to call a far superior game. The followin year those are the ones who get all the playoff games. So congratulations, you're up.

 

[bowlingref]

Great post White hat.

 

[H00PSREF]

For once I agree with HR...But Fbref...let this man know what we all go through to reach that level. Let him know that always whats seen from the stands is not what needs or should to be called. Let him know that there are some bad oficials out there and hopefully over time they will be weeded out. Maybe...just maybe...he'll understand what our job is and how hard it is and how hard some of us, like you and me, work to get better. But probabably you'll just delete it because he bashed officials and/or because I responded.
This post was edited on 3/2 6:29 PM by H00PSREF

 

[CruFan13]

Long maybe, but far from uninformed. If you read the post, I already stated I don't have the skill sets to be a ref, but if you guys are that tight to just defend each other, than it proves my point.

I guess I should have just asked my questions, but I was frustrated that the season is over. I wouldn't understand why you would take offense to the post. It was an honest observation and wasn't meant to be taken personally.

If you feel that every ref you know or see honestly deserves praise on honor for the job they do every night, then we obviously disagree. And I don't think all the classes and clinics and certifying you go through makes you perfect and immune to observation or even scrutiny.

I would have apologized if I offended any of you, but obviously you stooped to such a low level, I am not really sorry. It appears this forum is just for you guys to toot your own whistles. I guess I will have to find a better forum for educated and mature conversation.

But thanks for not answering any of my questions.

Gook luck to you all.... Delete away!

 

[H00PSREF]

Cru...I'll NEVER defend all refs. There are certainly some bad refs out there. There are alot of guys who do this at a lower level simply for the money(and they ARE cheap). I ref'd for 25 years and will be glad to answer any questions you have. I did not take offense to the question...Im just not sure what youre asking. Ask youre question...and I will gladly respond. But for the life of me I dont see a question in your post. Maybe Im just a dummass...but please ask away. Oh yeah...sorry...slapping the backboard. Slapping the backboard is not goal tending....its not basket interference...it's a technical foul if thought to be done intentionally BY RULE. If the defensive player slapped the backboard just trying to block a shot....probably nothing would be called. If I missed any of your other questions please let me know. I am not an official that thinks that just because you put the striped shirt on you're right. Quite the contrary...If you put the striped shirt on....you'd BETTER be right!!!
This post was edited on 3/2 7:14 PM by H00PSREF

 

[CruFan13]

Thank you HOOPSREF. That makes it a tough call, you would think it would be easier to just call basket interference when the guy shakes the backboard causing the the rim to move and alter the balls travel.

My other question is about evaluations? Obviously there is no supervisor at the games, so what happens, do coaches send in evaluations on refs? I have seen some of the intense training you guys receive at Va. Wesleyan College during the summer team events, and it looks like good stuff.

Thank you for your time.

 

[FBRef]

I'd like to thank everyone who has posted over the years since I've been a moderator at VaPreps. I have truly enjoyed interacting with each of you. We haven't always agree but I think we all share a passion for HS athletics.

This is my last post as a moderator on VaPreps. When a man who used to be a moderator here returns for the sole purpose of publicly criticizing the way I moderate the site, then it's time for me to go. I don't need the abuse or the personal attacks, especially from someone who used to be an official. It's just as wrong to publicly criticize an official on this forum as it is to sit in the stand and criticize a fellow official. I have no respect for such. Not sure why he's so bitter or why he's chosen to attack me publicly for the manner in which I moderated the forum, especially when he gave up his moderation role. I'm disappointed to say the least but I'm taking the high road. Let him take his cheap shots.

The rules for this forum are simple: Don't bash officials. The purpose of the forum is clear: Allow fans an opportunity to ask actual game officials questions about plays they've seen or rules they don't understand. If it's allowed to become a bitchfest, then the purpose of the forum is lost. Officials won't post here and it'll become just another place for fans to whine and complain about the refs.

I moderate Ask the Ref forums on several Rivals sites, JJ's Huddle in Ohio and the NFHS Discussion Form. The rules are the same on all those sites and they are successful for that reason. I hope this site will continue to be successful.

All the best!

 

[White hat]

Cru, what I took offense to was the idea that a no-call completely affected the game. I bet the other team didn't see it that way. I bet they thought it was just a minor call that could have been made and wasn't.

That's the biggest point. The officiating looks A LOT better when you don't care who wins. I don't call basketball but I see a lot of it, mostly as a writer who doesn't care who wins, and what I see in nearly every case is the same game being called at each end.

I see fans who, when a close call goes against them are infuriated -- they insist it has a HUGE impact on the game. They talk about it afterward like it was a turning point. But the other team doesn't even recall the incident. Likewise, when a close call goes their way and the other team is incensed, the same fans just shrug it off as no big deal, might have been right or maybe not, but just another in many during the game.

As far as evals, every area is different. There could very well be a supervisor present -- know who he is or what he looks like? I know of one commissioner in footall who attends at least two and usually three JV games each week, looking at the newer officials, more than he watches veterans on varsity games. He also relies on peer review. My evaluations are as detailed as I can make them (I can't pay too much attention to another guy's area of duty when I have my own) honest and sometimes harsh. They are internal and would never be shared with anyone other than the commissioner or that official themselves.

But here's another point: I am NOT going to evaluate judgment. I am going to evaluate demeanor, knowledge, professionalism (attitude) and mechanics. If I'm watching a basketball game and I see a charge called and I thought it was a block, I have to assume that either his angle showed something I couldn't see, or his experience made him know something I don't know. Fans, however, think they're right, the official is wrong, and he needs to be downgraded by someone somewhere.

You mentioned the shirt tug that wasn't called. that's a specific I cna't really comment on, but most refs won't call an obvious attempt to negate an advantage with a cheap act. The guy with the advantage, however, still has to stay in control and not charge.

 

[CruFan13]

It wasn't a no-call, it was a missed-call, and as a writer and guy that has watched a lot of basketball, you can't tell me you would disagree that a call here or there doesn't affect the dynamic of the game.

Every possession is important for everyone on the court (even refs), especially when the teams are evenly matched. In my humble opinion, the refs had a bad possession. I don't think, from what I saw, that the refs decided against a call, it was that they just blew it. Like I said it happens. But to say it has no impact on the game, I disagree with you. Obviously, the winning team isn't going to look at it the same. But, they may look back and see getting the opposing point guard in foul trouble as a key to victory.

And I am fairly certain, the losing team isn't pointing to that possession as the reason they lost. But, they know that losing their point guard to foul trouble changes their gameplan.

As far as saying, "most refs won't call an obvious attempt to negate an advantage with a cheap act." I mean that is a problem all by itself. I think you may be talking about when a player attempts to stop a guy from getting down the court for a fast break dunk, and the player with the advantage really isn't bothered by the grab. This was not the case, the grab clearly impeded and negated the advantage.

But in the games I have seen just this year, I have seen this call missed (not called), fouls called and even an intentional foul called on an occasion. That was the consistancy I was talking about. I understand there is alot of subjective calls, but making the easy calls should be standard. If they don't make the call, because they assume it won't affect the play, well here is a case where that is wrong.

I don't blame the refs for the loss. I think all coaches, players and most fans realize that their are going to be missed called, bad calls, mistakes, etc.

Thank you for the insight on the evals. I guess I never considered there being someone there watching incognito. I didn't mean for the question to be tied to bad calls. I understand guys miss calls and make bad calls, just like the players and coaches make bad decisons and mistakes.

I was just curious about the very thing you said... are guys in position and do they understand their role? are they professional? is there someone checking their attitude and demeanor? etc.

There are good refs, and they deserve the feedback as much as the guy who needs help.

And I wouldn't expect for any eval to be published to the public, but I was just wondering about the internal workings of the organization.

And I envy you anyway, because the games are normally more enjoyable overall when you don't care who wins, lol.

 

[H00PSREF]

One of the issues with fans that are watching a game is that they do not know the rules. This is not a belittlement, most fans are never in a situation where they could learn the rules. There is alot more to the rules of the game than meets the eye. Lets take personal fouls for an example. There are three aspects to a personal foul. All three need to be present for there to be a personal foul. One- there needs to be contact. Obvious right? Play 1- An offensive player is between a defender and the player with the ball, all three moving in the same direction. I heard all the time...."MOVING SCREEN"!!! No contact there....no foul. Second - the contact has to be illegal. Play 2- During a legal screen there is contact between the defender and the screener. If the screen is legal then the contact is legal. No foul. And last but certainly not least, the illegal contact has to put the player being contacted at a disadvantage. Play 3- An offensive player slides in front of a defender and sets an illegal screen. However, the defender slides around the screen with minimal contact and his defensive position is not compromised. We have contact and we have illegal contact but no advantage gained. No foul.
Takes some training and experience to master this as well as other intangible aspects of officiating. To be a good official you have to be a student of the game. And just like in a school situation....not all students get an A.

 

[CruFan13]

I agree with the comment on the fans. I consider myself pretty up to speed on the basics. Stuff like the smacking the backboard and other rules confuse me sometimes. I have been around the game for thirty years, but haven't been anything but a fan and assistant coach for the last couple. Rules and calling trends are pretty fluid, and you would certainly have to be a student of the game to stay current and sharp.

This is a great place to get those clarification and insight to calls like moving screens.

In your training do they emphasize certain trends? The reason I ask is that there seems to have been a lot more charges called this year than I remember from in the past. Seems like the defense has been getting more of the benefit of the doubt when it comes to establishing himself and drawing the charge. Also, it seems like before this year, there was some leadway by the offensive player to get the shot up and get away with some contact on his follow through. I also thought that if the contact was after the shot, that the basket counted.

p.s. the offensive fouls I speak of have been evenly distributed, so I am not bitching as one team's fan, lol.

 

[bowlingref]

A lot of people think a moving screen is a foul. When I played years ago, if an offensive player was running down the floor and blocked the defender from getting to the man with the ball and no contact was made, a moving screen was called. We lost a big game one night on that B.S. call. Easy to remember some things that happened in the Stone Age.

 

[Hampton Roads 6]

Basketball rules are the most difficult to know, of any sport. I recall back in the day when I was a ref, studying for NFHS written test was almost like studying for the Bar Exam to become a lawyer.

 

[gymrat10]

So...how'd ya do on the Bar?...or did ya just study a bit for it?

 

[2muchBBnever]

The Western Valley Association - Still terrible

Only a few good refs there and they do all the "big boy games". While the rest are trying to evaluate the new ones at PH's team camp when they need to get evaluate them. I have seen some young ones that have potential just need the work. If the commisioner(s) would stop being buddy/buddy with some officials and giving them all the games. Let some of the young ones do good games with the the good veterans then officiating in the area might get better. BUT that's never going to happen. "NEVER"!!