Riverheads/Essex Game....Pass Interference in the End Zone....Did the Refs Get it Right?

[longtimerhsfan]

As I reported in my review of the game, there was a play in the third quarter where a Riverheads player clearly interfered with an Essex receiver in the end zone. It was on a 4th and goal play from about the 6. In the stands, most of us were assuming that the result would be an automatic first down somewhere around the 1 or 2, since the play had occurred in the end zone.

Instead the refs said it was a half the distance penalty, so Essex got one more shot on fourth down from the three, and they failed to score. Riverheads then took over and the game moved on from there.

I have now watched the video of the game. Our local announcers, who do a great job giving us a simultaneous radio broadcast, along with play-by-play call on the NFHS video, were just beside themselves on that call, and talked about it the rest of the game. Their position was that the refs simply blew the call.

By the time it happened, the game was out of reach for Essex, so at least it did not make any difference. But just for the sake of discussion, what do you rules analysts out there think? Should it have been an automatic first and goal or did they get it right...i.e. that pass interference is just a flat 15 yard or half-the-distance penalty, regardless of where it occurs?

As the radio guys said, if they were in fact correct, then you could argue that the defensive player made a great play if he knew that it was not going to be a first down.

 

[NNDman]

The only automatic first downs in NFHS football are on roughing calls. Essex's misfortune was where the original LOS was. If this play had been 4th and 10 from the 50, the 15-yard infraction would have produced a first down. I believe most folks felt it was 1st down since the 15-yard penalty typically exceeds the yardage to go for a first down.
If I'm wrong, someone point out where it can be found in the NFHS rule book

 

[LMcCray]

Since I am one of those radio guys, I'll chime in. (And thanks for listening)

Every level of football I have ever watched, on tv, the offensive team has a 1st down there. After our initial reaction, we started hearing, along with texts coming in, that what NNDman said is correct, the only automatic first down is the roughing. I made the point that the Riverheads DB made a great play if he was unsure the receiver may be catching it. Joe Deck made the fine point that this is a rule that the VHSL should look into.

Coach Casto in the post-game interview also acknowledged he thought that would have the first down for Essex too. I was impressed he would admit that, even though it was the opposite of what he would have wanted in that spot. But yes, the outcome had been determined at that time, but at some point that rule will mean more than it did on Saturday.

Reminder, our same radio team will be calling the State Final on Saturday. Tailgate show at 3pm, Coaches showm with interviews from both Coaches at 4pm, and live coverage for the 4:30pm kickoff in Salem. Find us at 1240AM around Staunton, espn1240theboss.com, or TuneIn App by searching 'WTON'.

 

[schoolboard]

Not a spot foul. Did not gain distance to first down. Not really that hard to figure out.

 

[mmqp 5.0]

Hmm, sounds like a rule that could be exploited in under the right circumstances.

 

[schoolboard]

We have tons of rules like that now. One of the perks of sitting next to the clock ref is I can get rules interpretations in real time. And a lot of rules are specific to high school. The rules on clock stoppage after penalties is one that I have seen be exploited. Also, there are ones I won't go into because of safety concerns.

 

[longtimerhsfan]

I am sure all the surprise reactions were based on what we see in college and pro games. When there is a foul in the end zone in those games, the victimized team almost always gets the first down and sometimes gets possession at the one.

Something else I have never understood, although it may cause us to go off topic, is the difference in pro ball between a 15 yard penalty for pass interference and a spot foul. What determines which one will be enforced? Sometimes in pro ball, there can be such a thing as a 40 or 50 yard penalty.

 

[White hat]

The VHSL has no control over the rules. They come from the NFHS. The NFHS Rules Committee meets in January each year in Indianapolis and discusses rules changes.

Any coach or AD can submit a request for rules change to their state rep to the NFHS Rules Committee (Shawn Knight, in Virginia) by the deadline date in November and Shawn will take it to the meeting in January in Indianapolis. Most go nowhere. Changes come when there are lots of people requesting the same change, then the committee gives it some credence.

Four or five years ago there was a lot of request from coaches to eliminate the loss of down portion of the offensive pass interference penalty. It seemed 15 yards and loss of down was too harsh. The committee agreed, but then decided that, to make things fair, they would also eliminate the automatic first down aspect of defensive pass interference. This was somewhat out of the blue, but it's been this way for several years.

The differences in the rules from pro to college to high school are vast. There is even a book that is just the differences between high school and college and it's nearly as long as the high school rule book itself.

 

[trutiger16]

Definitely needs clarification but great play by Riverhead, I would rather spit you yardage versus a score . I could see this being a coaching strategy for someone in crucial situation.
Once again great decision by the defender.

 

[WP02alum]

People will take advantage just like how it makes sense to commit defensive PI rather than give up a long pass over 15 yards.

 

[schoolboard]

People will take advantage just like how it makes sense to commit defensive PI rather than give up a long pass over 15 yards.

Absolutely. I have been saying this for years. And PI gets called much less frequently in high school, compared to college and pros, so if you think you're beat on a long pass just tackle the guy.

 

[White hat]

Absolutely. I have been saying this for years. And PI gets called much less frequently in high school, compared to college and pros, so if you think you're beat on a long pass just tackle the guy.

A seldom used rule that is in the NFHS Rules Book regards intentional pass interference. That's actually a 30 yard penalty. It's 15 for DPI and 15 for unsportsmanlke conduct. I've only seen it called once but it was a case where a defender was beat and tackled a receiver.

 

[schoolboard]

A seldom used rule that is in the NFHS Rules Book regards intentional pass interference. That's actually a 30 yard penalty. It's 15 for DPI and 15 for unsportsmanlke conduct. I've only seen it called once but it was a case where a defender was beat and tackled a receiver.

Thanks for that. While you are here, an L.C.A. player with ball hurdled an upright defender in the championship game and no flag. I saw that called at our place once. Has that rule changed?

 

[SFUWO]

As I reported in my review of the game, there was a play in the third quarter where a Riverheads player clearly interfered with an Essex receiver in the end zone. It was on a 4th and goal play from about the 6. In the stands, most of us were assuming that the result would be an automatic first down somewhere around the 1 or 2, since the play had occurred in the end zone.

Instead the refs said it was a half the distance penalty, so Essex got one more shot on fourth down from the three, and they failed to score. Riverheads then took over and the game moved on from there.

I have now watched the video of the game. Our local announcers, who do a great job giving us a simultaneous radio broadcast, along with play-by-play call on the NFHS video, were just beside themselves on that call, and talked about it the rest of the game. Their position was that the refs simply blew the call.

By the time it happened, the game was out of reach for Essex, so at least it did not make any difference. But just for the sake of discussion, what do you rules analysts out there think? Should it have been an automatic first and goal or did they get it right...i.e. that pass interference is just a flat 15 yard or half-the-distance penalty, regardless of where it occurs?

As the radio guys said, if they were in fact correct, then you could argue that the defensive player made a great play if he knew that it was not going to be a first down.

They only way it's a first down is if the penalty yardage puts them past the first down. PI us not an automatic first down. Ex). If it's 3rd and 16. PI would not get you the first down. 3rd and 1.

 

[SFUWO]

Thanks for that. While you are here, an L.C.A. player with ball hurdled an upright defender in the championship game and no flag. I saw that called at our place once. Has that rule changed?

I don't think the rule has changed. It's a judgement call if the ref thinks the defender has left his feet to make the play. My initial thought was a Flagg but I was watching the stream.

 

[SFUWO]

The VHSL has no control over the rules. They come from the NFHS. The NFHS Rules Committee meets in January each year in Indianapolis and discusses rules changes.

Any coach or AD can submit a request for rules change to their state rep to the NFHS Rules Committee (Shawn Knight, in Virginia) by the deadline date in November and Shawn will take it to the meeting in January in Indianapolis. Most go nowhere. Changes come when there are lots of people requesting the same change, then the committee gives it some credence.

Four or five years ago there was a lot of request from coaches to eliminate the loss of down portion of the offensive pass interference penalty. It seemed 15 yards and loss of down was too harsh. The committee agreed, but then decided that, to make things fair, they would also eliminate the automatic first down aspect of defensive pass interference. This was somewhat out of the blue, but it's been this way for several years.

The differences in the rules from pro to college to high school are vast. There is even a book that is just the differences between high school and college and it's nearly as long as the high school rule book itself.

Yeah fans definitely get these rules mixed up. Ex) the uncatchable ball in the NFL. Doesn't exist in High School.

 

[White hat]

The hurdling rule hasn't changed. Sometimes a play that looks like a hurdle (was even intended to be a hurdle) but the lead foot or knee ends up going outside the frame of the defended, therefore not over, then it's not foul.

I didn't see this play so I can't judge. Would love to see it.

 

[schoolboard]

The hurdling rule hasn't changed. Sometimes a play that looks like a hurdle (was even intended to be a hurdle) but the lead foot or knee ends up going outside the frame of the defended, therefore not over, then it's not foul.

I didn't see this play so I can't judge. Would love to see it.

The play starts at 1:21 3Q in the L.C.A.-Phoebus game. It is on demand at NFHS network. The defender is trying to get him at a 45 degree angle, lowers his head a little bracing for impact and the guy hurdles right over the top of him and the defender tackles air.