The game has officially been declared a forfeit. Salem will earn a win and Carroll will earn a loss, so this is going to effect seedings.
Salem vs. Carroll County officially declared a forfeit
- Thread starter salemfan32
- Start date
Heard from a very good source this was in the works a few weeks ago but didn't want to post in case it was a rumor.
Kudos to Salem for doing the right thing.
Kudos to Salem for doing the right thing.
Who makes the official designation? The District or the VHSL? And I assume the rules that apply are spelled out in the VHSL Handbook?
I'm editing this because it couldn't be the District, because two different districts could be involved.
I'm editing this because it couldn't be the District, because two different districts could be involved.
CC was the home team, it was their game. The Home team would take the forfeit if they are unable to make up the game...
At least, that's how I think it went down...
Likely , if beat both Cave and Pulaski , finish at 31.7 or 31.9 . If Byrd beats Botetourt , maybe 32.1 , probably 3rd seed , but that is OK !
That would put them 3rd this week.
Champe, John 4A 4A West Dulles 8 0 0 6 0 0 30.75000
Jefferson Forest 4A 4A West Seminole 8 0 0 4 0 0 30.00000
Salem 4A West River Ridge District 8 0 0 5 0 0 29.375
Woodgrove 4A 4A West Dulles 7 1 0 5 1 0 28.25000
Pulaski County 4A 4A West River Ridge 8 0 0 5 0 0 28.12500
Sherando 4A 4A West Northwestern 7 1 0 2 0 0 27.50000
Heritage (LC) 4A 4A West Dulles 6 2 0 4 2 0 26.37500
Millbrook 4A 4A West Northwestern 6 2 0 2 0 0 25.37500
Washington, George 4A 4A West Piedmont 7 1 0 5 0 0 24.75000
Loudoun Valley 4A 4A West Dulles 6 2 0 4 2 0 24.00000
Byrd, William 4A 4A West Blue Ridge 5 3 0 3 1 0 23.75000
Amherst County 4A 4A West Seminole 5 3 0 4 1 0 23.62500
Harrisonburg 4A 4A West Valley 6 2 0 4 0 0 22.87500
Liberty Christian Academy 5 3 0 0 0 0 22.37500 4A 4A West Seminole
Dominion 4A 4A West Dulles 4 4 0 3 3 0 22.12500
Fauquier 4A 4A West Evergreen 5 3 0 3 1 0 22.00000
Liberty (Beal) 4A 4A West Evergreen 4 4 0 3 1 0 21.75000
Wood, James 4A 4A West Northwestern 4 4 0 0 3 0 21.00000
Bassett 4A 4A West Piedmont 3 5 0 3 2 0 20.87500
Charlottesville 4A 4A West Jefferson 3 5 0 1 4 0 19.50000
Correct, Barring a couple of games swinging Salem will finish at 31.7 enough to make them the 3 seed.
I think this is a good decision. Since this transpired, I've wondered how a school could unilaterally decide a game was going to be cancelled, and not incur any penalty. That would have set a very bad precedent.
I'm also glad for whichever school or two that would have been stuck with lower seeds than they deserved due to Salem-Carroll Co. resulting in no decision. So, justice is served from that standpoint, as well.
Let the seeds fall where they may! Frankly, I am only disappointed because of the effect this will have on my personal travel convenience. The team will cope either way. I've attended each of the twenty true road playoff games Salem has played. Ten of those games resulted in losses. With perhaps one exception (played under highly unusual circumstances), I didn't drive home from any of those losses thinking, "Dang! We would have won that at home." Simply put, I don't think the venue matters much at all in regards to the outcome in high school ball.
I'm also glad for whichever school or two that would have been stuck with lower seeds than they deserved due to Salem-Carroll Co. resulting in no decision. So, justice is served from that standpoint, as well.
Let the seeds fall where they may! Frankly, I am only disappointed because of the effect this will have on my personal travel convenience. The team will cope either way. I've attended each of the twenty true road playoff games Salem has played. Ten of those games resulted in losses. With perhaps one exception (played under highly unusual circumstances), I didn't drive home from any of those losses thinking, "Dang! We would have won that at home." Simply put, I don't think the venue matters much at all in regards to the outcome in high school ball.
Happened in 2011 when we were suppose to play GW-Danville and they made every excuse not to play. We came up with every alternative, but the game wasn't played because of a Band Competition. There was no forfeit!!
Frankly I think the bye is a dumb idea. I'd take Salem as a 5 or 6 seed just to play an extra game.
Wish we could dump being in the RRD, it's going to be borderline impossible for Salem to see a 1 seed ever again unless we dump the OOC completely and rework it with 5A and 6A squads only and we know we're never dropping Byrd and Northside.
Wish we could dump being in the RRD, it's going to be borderline impossible for Salem to see a 1 seed ever again unless we dump the OOC completely and rework it with 5A and 6A squads only and we know we're never dropping Byrd and Northside.
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I think the key factor is, the teams you beat need to WIN GAMES! The biggest thing hurting Salem's rating this year is that the other seven RRD teams combined to go 7-14 in non-district games. And Pulaski won three of those seven; none of the other six RRD teams won more than one non-district game.
But with knowing your District isn't that great you should go out and find teams that can win games in the OOD schedule. Win or lose you are going to get a lot of rider points...We stand to get 9 wins (18 points) from Northeastern, 6-7 wins (12-14 points from Monticello) and probably 4 wins (8 points) from Heritage. Now granted our district has been decent in OOD games, but you have to be prepared in case the district is down. We have 19-20 wins to count for our 3 OOD games.
Well a big problem is frankly unless these teams run into a really good player and ride him into a hopefully injury-free season a lot of teams simply aren't what they used to be. Plus as said, if an injury occurs well, we all saw what happened to HV last year.
Northside's going to be 8-2; Byrd, 7-3 or 6-4; Amherst will win between 5 and 7. So that's somewhere between 19 and 22 wins for Salem's non-district foes. They are not the problem this year. Thank goodness Franklin Co. is off the schedule.
The OOC is OK. Northside should be worth 8 wins, Byrd worth 6-7 and Amherst worth probably 6 as well. Those are 3A, 4A, and 4A respectively. The problem is those first 2 teams are very, very old rivalries you simply won't see Salem drop which means Salem gets 1 game of OOC wiggle room and a district that they're essentially supporting on their own that has far too many 3A schools.
Oh well, unfortunately there's just not much that can be done. These schools bleeding numbers aren't going to help anyone do anything in the future, though.
Salem played Amherst with probably 6 or 7 wins , William Byrd with 6 or 7 , and Northside with 8 so we should end up with 20-22 OOD wins !
The issue this year is our in district teams are not winning many out of district I would say !
In district Pulaski won all three , Patrick Henry 2 , Christiansburg 1 , Blacksburg 1 , and Cave Spring and Hidden Valley 0 !
So, is Carroll Co. in your district? If not why did you decide to play them? They probably will win 1 game.
LT even offered to pay for GW's charter bus to come to Norfolk but they refused. Would've been a waste of LT's resources anyway. GW was atrocious that year.
We were on the charter bus leaving for Danville when they called and cancelled. We even tried to play the game at Averett. Offered to come down on Monday, Tuesday, we pay, we meet halfway, but they didn't want to play like you said. Very disappointing to say the least.
Not surprised. They were under Jimmy Teague then. Worst coach in school history. They lost to Petersburg, beat a below avg Person (NC) team on a last second field goal, lost to Churchland, lost to Franklin Co and barely beat Southampton Co. Probably did you guys a favor. It would've gotten ugly! Mike Tyson would've had a field day lol..
This simply shows that a point system like we have is fundamentally flawed. Salem would have won this game 70-0 if they played. Whether we designate it a forfeit or not have we changed anything about how good Salem is or the difficulty of what they have achieved this year? Forfeits always end up doing strange things to teams that had nothing to do with the game because of this system. I still believe in finding the probably a slightly above average team could win the number of games that a team won and ranking them based on how tough that number wins would be. Oh well, I'm too old to fight for this stuff anymore.
Go Pulaski! Make the West a total CF. Would absolutely love that and all the whining.
Yep. We had never played them before they were forcibly made a RRD team a few years ago. Trust me, CC doesn't like it anymore than we do. The team is 90+ minutes from Salem and I would assume closer to 2 hours away from several other RRD foes. They don't belong in the RRD, they get smashed weekly in football and other sports, it is bad for absolutely everyone involved.
For those around the state who probably aren't familiar, Carroll County presents a conundrum. They, along with Patrick Henry (Roanoke), were moved to the River Ridge District in the last redistricting/reclassification two years ago. Like a few other schools west of Richmond and south of Charlottesville - Franklin Co., PH, Halifax Co., and to a lesser extent Abingdon and GW (Danville) - Carroll Co. is on a population island. They're 4A by numbers, but are located over an hour away from any other 4A school, with the exception of Pulaski County.
In addition to being isolated, Carroll Co. suffers from a huge gap in competitiveness. Aside from their fine state championship softball team, the Cavs have not been too competitive in most other sports. They did have a regional champion in boys basketball in 2013, but that was their first such success since the late '70's, and they don't appear likely to reach those heights again any time soon. The last several years, I don't think it's unfair to say that Carroll County's football program has been a travesty. Including this forfeit, the Cavs are now 0-19 in River Ridge District games. I'm not going to do the math, but the AVERAGE margin in those games is probably around 30. Prior to that, Carroll lost the last five games they played against their Southwest District opponents; the Cavs' last win in a district football game came in October of 2011.
All of this is not to pick on Carroll County. I realize equal numbers don't automatically mean equal resources, opportunities and circumstances. My point is, at the next R/R cycle, the VHSL should do what Carroll wanted them to do two years ago, which is place the Cavs in another district. The Mountain Empire, Three Rivers, Hogoheegee, and Southwest could all be possibilities. Aside from 3A Abingdon in the Southwest, all of those districts are comprised of 2A and 1A schools. Putting Carroll County in the Three Rivers, for example - possibly the best geographic fit - would be no different than having 6A Franklin County in with a bunch of much smaller schools in the Piedmont District.
Such a move would benefit both Carroll County, and all of the other RRD schools. The Cavs would be much more competitive than they are ever likely to be in the River Ridge, even in its current down cycle. While they would never threaten to make the 4A West football playoffs, Carroll Co. could possibly scratch out four or five wins a year. And all of their former compatriots in the River Ridge would have another date available to schedule such non-district opponents as they saw fit.
In addition to being isolated, Carroll Co. suffers from a huge gap in competitiveness. Aside from their fine state championship softball team, the Cavs have not been too competitive in most other sports. They did have a regional champion in boys basketball in 2013, but that was their first such success since the late '70's, and they don't appear likely to reach those heights again any time soon. The last several years, I don't think it's unfair to say that Carroll County's football program has been a travesty. Including this forfeit, the Cavs are now 0-19 in River Ridge District games. I'm not going to do the math, but the AVERAGE margin in those games is probably around 30. Prior to that, Carroll lost the last five games they played against their Southwest District opponents; the Cavs' last win in a district football game came in October of 2011.
All of this is not to pick on Carroll County. I realize equal numbers don't automatically mean equal resources, opportunities and circumstances. My point is, at the next R/R cycle, the VHSL should do what Carroll wanted them to do two years ago, which is place the Cavs in another district. The Mountain Empire, Three Rivers, Hogoheegee, and Southwest could all be possibilities. Aside from 3A Abingdon in the Southwest, all of those districts are comprised of 2A and 1A schools. Putting Carroll County in the Three Rivers, for example - possibly the best geographic fit - would be no different than having 6A Franklin County in with a bunch of much smaller schools in the Piedmont District.
Such a move would benefit both Carroll County, and all of the other RRD schools. The Cavs would be much more competitive than they are ever likely to be in the River Ridge, even in its current down cycle. While they would never threaten to make the 4A West football playoffs, Carroll Co. could possibly scratch out four or five wins a year. And all of their former compatriots in the River Ridge would have another date available to schedule such non-district opponents as they saw fit.
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During the redistricting/reclassification moves made a few years ago, some had stated that these moves would help reduce some of the travel costs for schools. It would be interesting to see how moving Carroll Co to the RRD has affected their costs for all sports. I would think that having to make trips to Cave Spring or Hidden Valley for multiple sports would completely blow their travel budget.
Take basketball for example, a Tuesday night game for Carroll at Hidden Valley. Once the JV and varsity games are over, the team stops for a bite to eat, they are lucky if they make it back to the school before midnight.
I may be wrong but I believe the AD simply calls the other and says "we forfeit". A Coach can also remove his team from the field and refuse to play, in which case the refs declare a forfeit. what the official rules are, I can only guess. This should probably be placed in the "ask the ref". Section.
Carroll simply started going to Roanoke instead of Grundy & Richlands - don't see much of diff. there.
