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The ratings system, as good as it gets?

DinwiddieProud

VaPreps All State
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Dec 9, 2013
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I like the system that has evolved. It rewards teams for victories, and inhances the reward if the team they defeated wins other games.

I'm not sure how it can be improved..., but I bet you do.

What "realistic" changes would you make? Think about the economic and logistical implications of you changes, and be ready to justify and defend your suggestions.
 
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Add in true SOS where you get credit for your defeated opponents rider points. Example: Team A is undefeated has 320 points, beat a bunch of teams with good records. However many of those teams only have a few rider points during to beating not very good teams. Team B has less than 320 points and are 9-1. They also have beaten teams with good records but their opponents have many more rider points due to their opponents records.
Not saying make a big factor. Maybe only .5 point for each rider point your defeated opponents have. And only for defeated opponents.
 
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8 regions. Top four in each make playoffs. Each of the four in a different quadrant of the playoff bracket. Ex: region 1 seed 4 vs region 2 seed 1. That way if one region is loaded they can all have potential to represent against other regions deep in playoffs.
Absolutely agree with cross-regional bracketing, for exactly the reason you state, but in some situations that would hinder the gate receipts and add the ever-present travel argument (we all know where that idea will go based just on that). Additionally, with the current four regions some regions are stretched real thin; eight would make that problem even greater. Personally, I advocate a true statewide tournament but I know it will never happen.
 
Not meant to sound like a challenge, this is a legitimate question:
What is the purpose of cross bracketing the region final? If the answer is the top two teams are in the same region so let them meet in the state-semi why not meet in the region final? You've got to play them sometime, does 1 round earlier or later really matter?
 
Not meant to sound like a challenge, this is a legitimate question:
What is the purpose of cross bracketing the region final? If the answer is the top two teams are in the same region so let them meet in the state-semi why not meet in the region final? You've got to play them sometime, does 1 round earlier or later really matter?

IMHO which has zero weight, it puts more emphasis in playing a tougher schedule AND winning. The lower seed will likely have to hit the road and win to move on in the playoffs.

Sometimes 2 teams from the same district end up in the state title game but usually they're #1 vs #2 games anyway. So, it can prevent that game from occuring in the Regional playoffs! To me, that is more important than "revenue" issues!
 
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I think there needs to be a way to increase the teams strength of schedules. Sorry but I do not believe a team should be rewarded as much for playing a Division 3 team as a division 6 team. In my opinion it shouldn’t even be close. Rider points need to be changed!
 
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I agree stop giving rider points for playing down unless it is a district game.
There are no more OFFICIAL DISTRICTS anymore I thought. I know HSHS only plays 3 “Capital District” teams this year. There should be NO MORE playing down more than 2 Divisions(6 vs 4 ok but 6 vs 3 NOT OK!). No rider points allowed for playing 3 levels down!
 
I think there needs to be a way to increase the teams strength of schedules. Sorry but I do not believe a team should be rewarded as much for playing a Division 3 team as a division 6 team. In my opinion it shouldn’t even be close. Rider points need to be changed!
See my post above. This would reward teams by playing schools that play a tough schedule.
I believe that the purpose of giving bonus points to teams that play "down" is so that the teams that want to play "up" are able to. We often get on here and say "Team A needs to play better teams" and "Such and such County needs a tougher schedule". However it takes two to tango and why would a higher team ever schedule a lower team if they can't make up the points at the end of the season?
 
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There are districts, you have to play your schedule. However most places district placement doesn't matter. Perhaps individual regions or districts don't enforce district play? But VHSL has a list of schools by district and each sport crowns a district champion (although it is really only for bragging rights and only affects post-season in 4C that I know of.)
 
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Just to clarify I'm using the term "rider points" to refer to the points you get for the number of wins your opponent has. I say "bonus points" referring to playing teams below your class. I think VHSL may not be using the term "rider points" at all anymore and they are all bonus points? Anyone confirm or deny this?
 
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There are districts, you have to play your schedule. However most places district placement doesn't matter. Perhaps individual regions or districts don't enforce district play? But VHSL has a list of schools by district and each sport crowns a district champion (although it is really only for bragging rights and only affects post-season in 4C that I know of.)
We don’t have districts anymore in the old central region. There are no more football district champions. I know my school,Highland Springs chooses who they play. They only play 3 teams from the old Capital District. Their other 7 games are whomever they choose.
 
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Schools would then be punished for who is in their district and SOS. Use the Piedmont and Seminole for an example. The Piedmont has two class 4 teams, three 3A and two 2A teams. Whereas the Seminole is all 3A/4A. Teams shouldn't be penalized for their location in the state and their district tie in. Then you look at teams in NOVA or the 757 area and their districts are comprised of teams that are all the same classification. Teams in the Piedmont would then be looking for tougher opponents to help their playoff standing and having difficulty finding games, as they already do. Then The seminole teams, knowing they have tough district competition, would be looking to fill their schedules with good opponents, but not necessarily teams they had a chance to lose to. I know that GW and Glass played and GW and JF, but it is like major college programs...the mid level teams are trying to get Power 5 on their schedules to build a resume and the Power 5 opts for lower level teams to get wins, but not have that chance of an upset.
 
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Yes I'm old. I like having districts....2 teams from each move on regardless and then slot them in the region how you like. I don't like these districts that have 3A/4A/5A all mixed. If you have to travel you have to travel...too bad.
 
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Yes I'm old. I like having districts....2 teams from each move on regardless and then slot them in the region how you like. I don't like these districts that have 3A/4A/5A all mixed. If you have to travel you have to travel...too bad.
I agreed! Bring back districts but only allow 2 levels of play!
 
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Well, if we have established anything, it's that there is no single improvement that we all agree upon.

But, there were some very interesting thoughts posted.

I think that possibly, the one single idea that may one day take root is rider points for wins might be adjusted according to Class, or Class difference.

In its own way, rider points tend to reward or punish, similar to how strength of schedule would.

Keep thinking, and keep proposing your ideas. The coaches and AD's around the state DO read this forum, so they hear you. And remember, the VHSL is not the employees that work in Charlottesville. The VHSL is those very AD's, Principals, and Coaches that read your post. They will be the ones that propose new ideas.

Great job gang. I'm proud of your thoughtful input.
 
How about changing the way you get power points for playing lower level teams. As it stands a D4 school gets the same amount of points for beating a 9-1 D2 school as they would a 9-1 D4 school. The only fix I can think of would
There are no more OFFICIAL DISTRICTS anymore I thought. I know HSHS only plays 3 “Capital District” teams this year. There should be NO MORE playing down more than 2 Divisions(6 vs 4 ok but 6 vs 3 NOT OK!). No rider points allowed for playing 3 levels down!
In the Roanoke area they still have districts. In the River Ridge District you have to play all teams that are within 2 classifications down or up. Ex) D6 vs D4. D3 teams have the option not to play a D6 school. Patrick Henry was D6 but partitioned to move down to D5. PH would have had a hard time filling a schedule if they were still D6.
 
How about changing the way you get power points for playing lower level teams. As it stands a D4 school gets the same amount of points for beating a 9-1 D2 school as they would a 9-1 D4 school. The only fix I can think of would

In the Roanoke area they still have districts. In the River Ridge District you have to play all teams that are within 2 classifications down or up. Ex) D6 vs D4. D3 teams have the option not to play a D6 school. Patrick Henry was D6 but partitioned to move down to D5. PH would have had a hard time filling a schedule if they were still D6.
We have teams in Richmond that had to drive all the way to colonial Beach to play teams in their classification. If it takes a little bit of travel to balance out the schedule, so be it. In my opinion,a Division 3 school has no business playing a division 6 school, A division 2 school has no business playing a division 5 school, and a division 1 school has no business playing a division 4 school. If it takes a little bit of travel, once again, so be it.
 
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My .02 would be to second that bonus points vary by class size rather than the same for all and please, please bring back cross bracketing when the regions are now to 2 teams.
 
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We have teams in Richmond that had to drive all the way to colonial Beach to play teams in their classification. If it takes a little bit of travel to balance out the schedule, so be it. In my opinion,a Division 3 school has no business playing a division 6 school, A division 2 school has no business playing a division 5 school, and a division 1 school has no business playing a division 4 school. If it takes a little bit of travel, once again, so be it.
Most schools don't have great attendance to help cover the cost of travel. Lets look at Franklin Co. They are the only D6 school in the Roanoke area. They would have to replace 7 teams on their schedule this yr alone. It was hard for Salem to pick up 1 game this cycle much less 7. We also have to take into account that a team would want to come halfway across the state to play Franklin Co. It's just not going to happen until the playoffs.
 
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My .02 would be to second that bonus points vary by class size rather than the same for all and please, please bring back cross bracketing when the regions are now to 2 teams.
What do you think about doing bonus points like this?
D1 2pts win 1pt for loss
D2 4pts win 2pts for loss
D3 6pts win 3pts for loss
D4 8pts win 4pts for loss
D5 10pts win 5pts for loss
D6 12pts win 6pts for loss
If you beat an opponent from one of the Divisions above . You get the points listed. Then you get the points of each team that they beat. Ex) Lafayette beats Smithfield. Lafayette gets 8pts for playing them. Smithfield then beats Jamestown, you get an additional 8pts because Smithfield beat a D4 opponent. If Smithfield beats Tabb you get 6pts because they are division 3. If you lose you get half the points for playing them and half the points for each one of their victories. Gets confusing
 
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Most schools don't have great attendance to help cover the cost of travel. Lets look at Franklin Co. They are the only D6 school in the Roanoke area. They would have to replace 7 teams on their schedule this yr alone. It was hard for Salem to pick up 1 game this cycle much less 7. We also have to take into account that a team would want to come halfway across the state to play Franklin Co. It's just not going to happen until the playoffs.
Teams WILL play them,but they have to be willing to travel the other direction the next yr. I can promise you...there are a lot of teams that would welcome a home & home vs Salem if any other D4 or above team out west. I know for a fact,our school sent out requests,but never got a response from ANY of the teams out there,and TRUST ME....we travel quite well.
 
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What do you think about doing bonus points like this?
D1 2pts win 1pt for loss
D2 4pts win 2pts for loss
D3 6pts win 3pts for loss
D4 8pts win 4pts for loss
D5 10pts win 5pts for loss
D6 12pts win 6pts for loss
If you beat an opponent from one of the Divisions above . You get the points listed. Then you get the points of each team that they beat. Ex) Lafayette beats Smithfield. Lafayette gets 8pts for playing them. Smithfield then beats Jamestown, you get an additional 8pts because Smithfield beat a D4 opponent. If Smithfield beats Tabb you get 6pts because they are division 3. If you lose you get half the points for playing them and half the points for each one of their victories. Gets confusing
The win rider points should TRIPLE the loss rider points...in D6 18points for wins 6 for loss.
 
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Teams WILL play them,but they have to be willing to travel the other direction the next yr. I can promise you...there are a lot of teams that would welcome a home & home vs Salem if any other D4 or above team out west. I know for a fact,our school sent out requests,but never got a response from ANY of the teams out there,and TRUST ME....we travel quite well.
Salem sent out a request through VHSL for week 2 and 8. No response. That is why Salem reached out to Martinsburg. I have no doubt HS would play anyone in the state if the schedule fits.
 
Teams WILL play them,but they have to be willing to travel the other direction the next yr. I can promise you...there are a lot of teams that would welcome a home & home vs Salem if any other D4 or above team out west. I know for a fact,our school sent out requests,but never got a response from ANY of the teams out there,and TRUST ME....we travel quite well.
I'm sure some teams would like to schedule them but I highly doubt you can get 7 teams schedules to fit together every cycle. Maybe 2 teams
 
I'm sure some teams would like to schedule them but I highly doubt you can get 7 teams schedules to fit together every cycle. Maybe 2 teams
My school went out of state twice. They’re still getting points based on those schools enrollment
 
Teams WILL play them,but they have to be willing to travel the other direction the next yr. I can promise you...there are a lot of teams that would welcome a home & home vs Salem if any other D4 or above team out west. I know for a fact,our school sent out requests,but never got a response from ANY of the teams out there,and TRUST ME....we travel quite well.
Not everyone has a nationally ranked team with tons of support. Many school systems, AD's, and parents, see high school sports as something for their kids to do while they are kids, they do not see it as a way of life. They have no interest in traveling 3-4 hours to get beat up by a team whose name they read in USA Today.
Will they get really good with that attitude? No. Will their kids get D1 scholarships? Probably not. Is it okay they prioritize differently? Absolutely.
 
People need to realize the cost involved with long travel distances. One or two games maybe, but any more than that takes a toll on finances. The money for these long distance trips comes out of the athletic budget. Drivers are paid by the hour and not just the time spent driving. Say a driver makes $25 an hour(no clue if this is accurate or not) and the school takes 4 buses. The trip is 3 hours away (6 hours total) plus 2.5 for the game. That equals out to $850 for one trip. Three trips in a season will cost $2550. That's a big hit for most departments, especially when it's only travel costs. Some schools feed students after games and that is another $200-300 a game, so almost another $1000. And keep in mind, this is just taking football into consideration. If it affects districts then you also have to factor in volleyball, soccer, baseball, basketball, softball, lacrosse, etc....

Other factors, in AD's minds, are the time that the athletes will be returning and the late hour the buses may be traveling, parents having to be up late waiting on child's return, and student athlete's driving in the late hours, potential on back country roads. Many would also be surprised how many teachers complain about athlete's missing class time to get out early for travel. A three hour bus ride would have kids being dismissed around 2:00 and some schools don't release until 3:30 or later. That equates to missing 1-2 classes depending on the schools period/block schedule.

It's easy to sit back and say that if you have to travel, so be it, but in this day and age, money is king, SOL's are the queen, and whatever would be higher is the parents and their complaints.
 
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Teams WILL play them,but they have to be willing to travel the other direction the next yr. I can promise you...there are a lot of teams that would welcome a home & home vs Salem if any other D4 or above team out west. I know for a fact,our school sent out requests,but never got a response from ANY of the teams out there,and TRUST ME....we travel quite well.
You won’t get many on the 4A board who understand what you’re saying. I get it cause I’ve been at two RVA metro area schools that prioritizes athletics. There are some schools out west that do but not like they do in RVA. Luckily we have many 5A and 6A schools so we don’t have to travel those distances but if push comes to shove, we’ll travel.

Also, what team doesn’t want expose? If you play the best your team plays to their full potential to compete. If you can play IMG and DeMatha, then play them. Your guys will get exposure playing those teams. Don’t believe it, schedule HS and see how your team benefits from it.
 
My wish would be that you NEVER play anyone buy the teams in your division. Again, if you have to travel to do it, too bad. I wish there was no need for rider/bonus/whatever points. Play games and the teams with the best records win. Tie-breakers would be the only thing to deal with.
 
And if a school/team can't afford the potential travel burdens?

Talked to our AD about it, he said the department wouldn't be able to afford it and the School Board would not approve it. He said travel times, departure times, and cost come up every year and that is dealing with some district games.
 
And if a school/team can't afford the potential travel burdens?

Talked to our AD about it, he said the department wouldn't be able to afford it and the School Board would not approve it. He said travel times, departure times, and cost come up every year and that is dealing with some district games.
I was shocked when Coach Potts told me that we would be scheduling John Marshall. He told me that when Tunstall visits Richmond next year, it’ll be an all day thing, basically a field trip. Gretna is playing Thomas Jefferson but it’s in Gretna. I’ve never known Pittsylvania County teams to go far unless it’s playoff time. When I was a student at Tunstall we went to Marion, Tazewell, Grundy and Richlands for playoffs. Those days are over now that most SWVA teams are 1 and 2 A teams with the exception of Abingdon.
 
I was shocked when Coach Potts told me that we would be scheduling John Marshall. He told me that when Tunstall visits Richmond next year, it’ll be an all day thing, basically a field trip. Gretna is playing Thomas Jefferson but it’s in Gretna. I’ve never known Pittsylvania County teams to go far unless it’s playoff time. When I was a student at Tunstall we went to Marion, Tazewell, Grundy and Richlands for playoffs. Those days are over now that most SWVA teams are 1 and 2 A teams with the exception of Abingdon.
I don't understand how it used to be affordable "back-in-the-day" and now it's not. No way these schools have less money than they did in the 70's/80's.
 
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I don't understand how it used to be affordable "back-in-the-day" and now it's not. No way these schools have less money than they did in the 70's/80's.
I looked at some of the travel times for the kids in SWVA and I was flabbergasted. Some of those kids are on the bus for hours going through snake path roads and you hear nobody in SWVA complaining. You know money is sparse out there. I don’t get it. Most of these schools charge $7 or $8 to get into the game plus concessions.. All free labor...Why are you crying about money? It’s the cry baby world in which we live in. Find sponsors for the kids and feed them... Get the kids off the couch and have them fundraising during the summer for their teams. Stop making excuses and take action.. Excuses only satisfy those who make them.
 
I looked at some of the travel times for the kids in SWVA and I was flabbergasted. Some of those kids are on the bus for hours going through snake path roads and you hear nobody in SWVA complaining. You know money is sparse out there. I don’t get it. Most of these schools charge $7 or $8 to get into the game plus concessions.. All free labor...Why are you crying about money? It’s the cry baby world in which we live in. Find sponsors for the kids and feed them... Get the kids off the couch and have them fundraising during the summer for their teams. Stop making excuses and take action.. Excuses only satisfy those who make them.
It's not all about money. Things like actual time on the road, time getting back from games, time spent out of school etc. are also factors. Additionally, many rural schools don't have a choice. They are the only school in the county and must go elsewhere to play. Harder to sell long trips to administration when there are teams right next door. Another factor in the mid-sized schools is that while yes, they have gate and concessions, they have many other teams to support while your SW schools often have many fewer teams that are also traveling. Remember, it costs the same to haul a bus load of football players or 10 seats of volleyball players.
Finally, I'm not sure who you are saying is "crying". No one is saying "if only we could travel we'd be as good as (insert really good team here)." People are only saying that what they have been told by Ad's, principals, and school boards for years: "We play a district schedule to reduce travel."
 
Just seems like years ago it would have been further to travel (fewer schools) and more expensive.
 
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