Two questions

[GoMBKMonarchs]

First, is there a horsecollar penalty in VA high school football?

The second question has to do with a situation I saw last week. A player had broken away on a kick-off and was running down the sideline. An opposing player was streaking across the field, dove towards the runner with his arm outstretched and, basically, caught the player across the neck with his arm. He wrapped and brought the runner down. Luckily, no one was hurt. But, it did appear violent. The official threw the flag for a personal foul. He first called something like "hitting the neck". When the coach protested that there was no such penalty, the ref settled on horsecollar (which led to my first question). Regardless, it was not a horsecollar- it came from the front across the neck. But, I am curious if what I described was illegal and should have drawn a penalty. If so, what specifically would the call be? Don't get me wrong, the defender was not doing anything intentional and was simply trying to bring the runner down. But, it was violent and dangerous. I just wasn't aware that it would actually be a penalty, and I'm curious as to what the specific penalty was since it was incorrectly called a horsecollar.

Thanks
This post was edited on 9/24 4:07 PM by GoMBKMonarchs

 

[gymrat10]

I think that would be a "clothes-line" and legal.

 

[FBRef]

Yes, there is a horse collar foul in HS football. Grabbing the inside collar of the jersey or pads from the side or back and pulling the runner down to the side or back in an unassisted tackle is a horse collar foul.

What you describe could most definitely constitute a personal foul for unnecessary roughness.
This post was edited on 9/25 12:38 AM by FBRef

 

[GoMBKMonarchs]

Just to clarify

The simple act of coming across the neck is not necessarily a penalty. It would have to be deemed an unecessary act, thus unecessary roughness?

 

[FBRef]

Re: Just to clarify

Correct.

 

[Hampton Roads 6]

another question

I saw this on Channel 13 (Lynchburg) Friday night. Defensive player tackles ball carrier around helmet and rips it off, but never grabbing face mask. is this a penalty ?

 

[Jimsthman]

This is a topic discussed yearly at our association meetings. To clarify and prevent myth from becoming percieved realty, FED rules define a couple of methods of bringing down a ball carrier that are fouls:
1.Grabbing a helmet opening (otherwise known as facemask but not limited to facemask!)
2.HCT

Other methods of bringing a ball carrier down that don't occur after the down has ended are generally legal (including tripping a ball carrier)

The "clothes line" may offend people's sensitivies but I think the officiating crew is going to have to sell it as Flagrant or intent to injure which is difficult and may also carry a disqualification. Definately a HTBT situation that one side isn't going to agree with.

 

[Jimsthman]

Re: another question

Yes if the defender grasped a helmet opening included to but not limited to the facemask.

 

[FBRef]

Originally posted by Hampton Roads 6:
I saw this on Channel 13 (Lynchburg) Friday night. Defensive player tackles ball carrier around helmet and rips it off, but never grabbing face mask. is this a penalty ?

Tackling a player around the helmet and the helmet coming off wouldn't necessarily be considered roughness.

Originally posted by Jimsthman:
This is a topic discussed yearly at our association meetings. To clarify and prevent myth from becoming percieved realty, FED rules define a couple of methods of bringing down a ball carrier that are fouls:
1.Grabbing a helmet opening (otherwise known as facemask but not limited to facemask!)
2.HCT

Other methods of bringing a ball carrier down that don't occur after the down has ended are generally legal (including tripping a ball carrier)

The "clothes line" may offend people's sensitivies but I think the officiating crew is going to have to sell it as Flagrant or intent to injure which is difficult and may also carry a disqualification. Definately a HTBT situation that one side isn't going to agree with.

There's no need to "sell" anything. We had a similiar play this year, flagged it as a personal foul for unnecessary roughness and moved right on. It's no different than picking up a runner and body slamming him or taking a cheap shot on an opponent 30 yards behind the play.

NFHS 9-4-3g
No player shall:
Make any other contact with an opponent which is deemed unnecessary and which incites roughness.

There's a lot of old school folks out there who think anything goes on the field. That simply isn't true anymore.

 

[Jimsthman]

Perhaps there is confusion over my use of the term "sell." If a PF is hit on a play associated with bringing down a ball carrier and it is not HCT or Facemask and did not occur after the down legally ended then as a wing-official I get to go over to the irate coach and tell him that we are applying illegal personal contact to a play ("clothes line") that is not specifically covered. I better be one great saleman here. I am not disagreeing that the play may not have been a foul. We havew worked very hard the last decade to clean up thuggish non-football acts.

 

[FBRef]

Originally posted by Jimsthman:
If a PF is hit on a play associated with bringing down a ball carrier and it is not HCT or Facemask...

So you're saying that the only live ball personal fouls that can be committed against a runner is a FM and a HCT?

 

[Jimsthman]

Nope. Never wrote that-nice use of copy-paste to pull a fragment of my post in order to prove your point.
My point is that calling a PF on the play described in the original post is drawing from a subjective part of the illegal personal contact section rather than the objective which includes but is not limited to things like HCT, Facemask or Illegal Helmet Contact.
Making a tackle around the neck area of the runner is not in of itself illegal personal contact and requires the judgement of the covering official whether or not a foul was commited in a way that you quoted in an earlier post.
Again, I'm not saying that the tackle described in the OP is never a foul. Its definately a HTBT situation. One of my original posts was intended to educate that tackles made above the shoulder area are not necessarily PF's.

 

[White hat]

Re: another question

Regarding the idea that a helmet coming off would indicate a personal foul, I'm seeing a trend I really don't like of helmets coming off very easily. Had it happen in a JV game and the kid slipped his helmet right back on with the chin strap in place. I checked it and the chin strap was so loose it did not hold the helmet on. I made him go tighten it, then started checking chin straps and see a lot were very loose. I think kids want their helmets to come off because they look they made a big hit or were in a dramatic tackle.
This post was edited on 9/29 12:40 PM by White hat

 

[FBRef]

Originally posted by Jimsthman:
Nope. Never wrote that-nice use of copy-paste to pull a fragment of my post in order to prove your point.
My point is that calling a PF on the play described in the original post is drawing from a subjective part of the illegal personal contact section rather than the objective which includes but is not limited to things like HCT, Facemask or Illegal Helmet Contact.
Making a tackle around the neck area of the runner is not in of itself illegal personal contact and requires the judgement of the covering official whether or not a foul was commited in a way that you quoted in an earlier post.
Again, I'm not saying that the tackle described in the OP is never a foul. Its definately a HTBT situation. One of my original posts was intended to educate that tackles made above the shoulder area are not necessarily PF's.

Ok. I was just having difficulty determining where you were coming from.

 

[Hampton Roads 6]

hard hit(block) on kickoff

I recall a few years back, a player blocked a kickoff coverage player so hard that a PF was called, and block was legal, except for how hard the player got "hit".

 

[Jimsthman]

Re: hard hit(block) on kickoff

Very likely that the block occured no where near the area where the ball was at the time and was judged by the covering official to be a non-football act. This is a PF even in the block is otherwise legal. Federation, which is the governing body for High School football in VA(and nearly every state)has for years made these types of hits a point of emphasis. Simply put, players cannot look to deliver knock out hits on unsuspecting opponents in areas that have nothing to do with the play in progress. Good officiating mechanics always have at least one official in "clean-up" position behind the play to catch these thuggish non-football acts.

 

[Hampton Roads 6]

Re: hard hit(block) on kickoff

on that play, the ball carrier was directly behind the blocker. after play was finished ,I think 45 yards were marked off aganist Gretna. I can't remember everything called , but I believe it was a flag for personal foul, then on opposite side of field there was one of the famous block in back flags, and 2 or 3 unsportsmanship flags. there were so many flags on that one return, I believe a couple of the refs picked up their flag and threw it again.

 

[vtplaya8]

Re: hard hit(block) on kickoff

HR6 Talking about unsportsmanship, if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black. You are a disgrace to any team, I'm sure if the Gretna fans knew you as I do they would run you out the stands. Quit crying and just enjoy our young men playing football, with out being so negitive.

 

[Hampton Roads 6]

Re: hard hit(block) on kickoff

You must have been the player that got blocked

 

[Fadamor]

The fans and coaches (and yes, even some officials) still have a lot to learn about what is and isn't an HCT at the high school level. Tackling with your arm across the neck of the runner is not an HCT unless the official claims the hand attached to the OTHER arm had grabbed the collar of the jersey or shoulderpads.

HCT Checklist:
1. Defender grabs runner's jersey collar on back or side and subsequently pulls the player down to back or side: HCT
2. Defender grabs runner's shoulderpad collar on back or side and subsequently pulls the player down to back or side: HCT
3. If the defender grabs as in (1) or (2), but the runner subsequently falls forwards: NOT an HCT
4. If the defender grabs as in (1) or (2), but a second player hits and brings down the runner: NOT an HCT
5. Defender grabs the jersey anywhere other than the collar and pulls the runner down to the back or side: NOT an HCT