Two things I saw in state semi-final I thought were mistakes...

[GilliamRatings]

Maybe rules have changed, but these seemed wrong to me.

1) Ball on team A's 12 yard line. Officials throw flags after play. The announcement was dead ball unsportsman like conduct penalties on both teams (or personal fouls or something like that). Definitely announced they were dead ball. Official then announced they offset and the teams played on. I thought all dead ball fouls were enforced. So fifteen yards one way and half the distance to the goal the other way (or the other way around--depending on order).

2) With about 4 seconds to go in 3rd quarter and clock running team A is called for a false start. They restart the clock after the penalty and the quarter ends. The official then announces that there will be an untimed down since the quarter can't end on an accepted penalty. It didn't end on an accepted penalty. It ended AFTER an accepted penalty.

 

[White hat]

1. The are enforced in order of occurrence UNLESS the officials aren't sure which happened first, then they're offset. Because they were unsportsmanlike fouls, that means it was caused by excessively lewd language, taunting or making threats. Often times when two players are running their mouths it really is impossible to know which player showed his [butt] first and they are offset because you just don't know.

2. You are right. The quarter should have ended. (I've made this mistake myself in the past). The quarter cannot end on an accepted LIVE BALL foul. False start is not live ball.

No official or crew has ever worked a perfect game and if that was their mistake, that crew probably called a very good game.

 

[GilliamRatings]

I thought they worked a good game (the teams sure made them do a lot of work).

I only ask these questions, because I always wonder if there's a rule change I missed (because I don't keep up with them yearly).

Your answers make perfect sense, and I am sure you are correct. Thank you.

Now here I wax philosophical - I am not trying to imply the refs did anything wrong, this is just the way I think it SHOULD be under the rules, and then how it should be if I were the football rules dictator.

I don't like the penalties offsetting if you don't know the order however...and here's why.

One of the penalties had to happen first. That's just a law of physics and philosophy and infintesimals and time.

So let's say the ball's on the offense's 12 yard line. If they committed the first foul it goes to the 6 yard line, then out to the 21.
and the offense gains 9 yards. If the penalties occurred in the other other the ball goes to the 27 yard line and then back to the 13 1/2 yard line. In EITHER case the offense gains yardage. By saying the penalties offset, the offense doesn't gain the benefit of EITHER situation. If I were in charge of how this should be enforced (when they're not sure which occurred first) they'd go the "benefit of the doubt route" and enforce the one that gave the least yardage to the offense (in this case--it could be defense on other end of field, obviously).

Now, for the record. If I were in charge of the rules, there is hardly anything I would change, but this is one of them. I think dead ball fouls that result in the same yardage amounts should offset (unless the yardage has already being marked off for one before the other occurs). So actually, having the penalties offset is what I think is a "fair" result in a perfect world, but not necessarily when I think of how the rules are written.

My other one is that I think a dead ball 15 yard foul on the offense SHOULD result in 1st and 25 like it used to in the olden days. I never understood why 1st down dead ball fouls get special privilege. If I commit a foul on 1st & 10 for a late hit why do I still get first and ten, but if I do it on 2nd and 10, I end up with 2nd and 25.

By the way, I love the other high school rules many complain about (kicks reaching the endzone being touchbacks--makes it less confusing for everyone), all scrimmage kicks treated the same way with regards to where the ball is placed if the kick doesn't score a field goal.

Also, one other thing. I have seen officials mark off penalties this way in the middle of the field on dead ball fouls. They walked 15 yards one way, and then 15 yards the other. My thought is that they probably only do that if it's going to effect where the chains are set (i.e. somewhere in this mess there was a first down). I would think, that's not quite as necessary with the rule about not ending up with a first and 25. I did wonder, however, if an officiating crew might go to the trouble to mark them both off just to give the teams a little time to cool off and make a point that the penalties were serious in nature even if they didn't result in a yardage gain for either team.
This post was edited on 12/9 6:49 AM by GilliamRatings

This post was edited on 12/9 6:56 AM by GilliamRatings

 

[White hat]

I think all deadball fouls with the same yardage should offset anywhere on the field. If you don't know which happened first, you simply don't know. No sense in guessing about it.

I think each team should always be able to decline a live ball foul. Automatically offsetting fouls if there is one by each team (and no change of possession) can be unfair. An astute player could see a flag on an opponent that, even after enfrocement, they'd have a big play, and that player then commits a foul in order to gain the advantage of wiping out that play.

Say Team A has it 3rd and 30 at their own 10, but completes a long pass. A22 is running and A33 is blocking downfield. At the 10 yard line A33 hits a B player in the back and is flagged. Worst case, A has the ball 1st an 10 at the B 20. But a B player sees the flag and then tackles A22 by the facemask. Guess what. Now it's 3/30 from A's 10 again.

Or say it's 3/5 at the A's 45, QB A12 scrambles and loses yards, reverses field and loses more. A defensive player gets a little facemask and a flag comes out, but A12 continues to lose ground and is tackled 30 yards behind the line. A22 saw the flag so he decides to clip the defensive player. Without the clip, the offense lost a lot of yards, even after the penalty yards are marked off. Because he clipped, the offensive player forced offsetting penalties and that huge loss is negated.

I say all that, but I've never heard of this situation actually taking place in real life.