Thought I read somewhere that the VHSL might possibly go to four classifications and let some schools play up in a higher division if they ask to. What is the possibility of this happening beginning in 2023-24 cycle?
Will the VHSL go to 4 Classifications in the next cycle?
- Thread starter LeeHighGeneral2011
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Virginias population has grown over last half century so I was ok with going away from only 3 divisions. But i think now having the benefit of hind sight that 6 divisions is to many. Dont you guys and gals think that it is to watered down? To many sub five hundred teams are making playoffs. This has been noticeable to me in the region in which I live. Southern Va.
How would things look with four or five?
No matter what they decide there will always be b***ing and moaning about it because you can't please all the people all the time. I would love to see the VHSL just one time find something that WORKS (whether it be for the regular season or the playoffs) and then STICK WITH IT instead of feeling compelled to tinker with it all the time.
There are a few people on here that have their own model of how a four team split would look. The one that is intriguing is by @mmqp I think. It doesn't break the groups out into a even number of teams in each classification which is the only issue I have with it. My point being about that is the percentages change on opportunity to make a finals or you have different playoff models for each group which would lead to other griping if you will. I believe the reasoning behind what he proposes is sound in that no school should have to play someone with twice as many students (unfair advantage in available athleticism to paraphrase it as I understand it). I choose to disagree only in so much as the only sport commonly brought to the forefront in that regard is football and not other team sports such as basketball or baseball out of the traditional big three.
Moving on to what an even break would look like and what advantages or pitfalls that could be there. There are 317 member schools right now and that would put us at 79.25 per classification if broken out strictly even across with no other factors involved. Looking at the current ADM alignment numbers on the VHSL org site you can find out where you would fall.
Class 4 would range from TC Williams having 3777 (Lake Braddock is second largest at 2807) to Mountain View having 1745
Class 3 would range from Hickory with 1743 to Caroline with 1150
Class 2 would range from Bassett having 1133 to John Battle having 608
Class 1 would range from Bruton with 603 the rest of the way down the list
Looks a little disproportionate for most of class 1 to play teams 4 times larger. My thing is that I don't think you can only look at football to decide this even though we can all agree that for most schools that is the money maker.
Moving on to what an even break would look like and what advantages or pitfalls that could be there. There are 317 member schools right now and that would put us at 79.25 per classification if broken out strictly even across with no other factors involved. Looking at the current ADM alignment numbers on the VHSL org site you can find out where you would fall.
Class 4 would range from TC Williams having 3777 (Lake Braddock is second largest at 2807) to Mountain View having 1745
Class 3 would range from Hickory with 1743 to Caroline with 1150
Class 2 would range from Bassett having 1133 to John Battle having 608
Class 1 would range from Bruton with 603 the rest of the way down the list
Looks a little disproportionate for most of class 1 to play teams 4 times larger. My thing is that I don't think you can only look at football to decide this even though we can all agree that for most schools that is the money maker.
I agree with you on that. I dont want to be to critical because it probably is a headache job to do. And there might be good teams left out but as long as it is fair to all there should not be a problem. Just dont have teams with zero wins or or one or two wins making playoffs.
I'm flattered haha. But I have a feeling they would not go for the 4 Classes like you or I are proposing. What they may consider would be the numbers you listed above, halving them, and making 8 classes.. and more playoffs (more money for them.. ) before they'd ever consider my breakdown.
But the way it is currently constituted it isn't fair to all. And if they just did away with 1 round (which has also been talked about) then it really depends on where you live/region you are in. Taking 5-8 seeds away would have resulted in a 9-1, multiple 8-2 and 7-3 teams out. All because of their region.
Back in the old days 9-1 teams regularly missed the playoffs, but look at another part of state and there were 4-6 teams making it.
So since you brought it up, and not in a ugly way, but what is the serious downside to these bad teams making the playoffs? Some blowouts? It gives these kids more game time, when 95% won't play past HS. And it gives the hosting team more revenue. Everyone needs to remember that its about these KIDS, and further down the list is the entertainment factor.
In the past 5 years or so I can think of 2 teams either 5-5 or 6-4 to win championship
You ask a great question and you are certainly correct in saying really good teams with good records could be left out. I honestly dont have a answer for your question. By the way under my plan Gretna would have missed the playoffs in 2011 when they won their last state. I guess you have to weigh good teams left out or bad teams let in. What is worse??? I was hoping that simply dropping one or two divisions would solve it but maybe not.
Read this today...
thoughts...
https://www.heraldcourier.com/sport...cle_1332f4f8-1c74-11ea-8096-9f6800a6b810.html
thoughts...
https://www.heraldcourier.com/sport...cle_1332f4f8-1c74-11ea-8096-9f6800a6b810.html
I don't think there is really any reason (not that it won't happen, and I am sure my thoughts won't be considered) to take games away from the kids. Sure there are some blowouts, but there is also the possibility that a scout sees someone on that team that "shouldn't be in" and they get to move to next level
VHSL made a mistake expanding to 6 instead of 4. I guess it's never too late to right a wrong, but it does seem weird to go backwards.I haven't toyed with it since VHSL R&R adopted a 4 year cycle, but here are the 2016 cutoffs in my system:
1A: -475 (50 teams) 16 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: Highland, Council, King & Queen
Largest 3: Washington & Lee, Northampton, Central Lunenburg
2A: 476-900 (72 teams) 32 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: Windsor, George Wythe-Wytheville, Stonewall Jackson-Mt. Jackson
Largest 3: Armstrong, Abingdon, Colonial Heights
3A: 901-1600 (94 teams) 32 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: William Monroe, New Kent, Brookville
Largest 3: Meadowbrook, Hermitage, Harrisonburg
4A: 1601+ (98 teams) 32 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: Green Run, Tuscarora, Potomac Falls
Largest 3: TC Williams, Woodbridge, Osbourn Park
1A: -475 (50 teams) 16 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: Highland, Council, King & Queen
Largest 3: Washington & Lee, Northampton, Central Lunenburg
2A: 476-900 (72 teams) 32 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: Windsor, George Wythe-Wytheville, Stonewall Jackson-Mt. Jackson
Largest 3: Armstrong, Abingdon, Colonial Heights
3A: 901-1600 (94 teams) 32 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: William Monroe, New Kent, Brookville
Largest 3: Meadowbrook, Hermitage, Harrisonburg
4A: 1601+ (98 teams) 32 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: Green Run, Tuscarora, Potomac Falls
Largest 3: TC Williams, Woodbridge, Osbourn Park
2018 numbers:
1A: -475 (50 teams) 16 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: Highland, Council, King & Queen
Largest 3: Washington & Lee, George Wythe-Wytheville, Essex
2A: 476-900 (74 teams) 32 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: Brunwick, Northampton, Riverheads
Largest 3: Abingdon, Hidden Valley, Skyline
3A: 901-1600 (92 teams) 32 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: Booker T. Washington, Petersburg, Brookville
Largest 3: Atlee, Nansemond River, Varina
4A: 1601+ (98 teams) 32 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: Riverside, William Fleming, Woodgrove
Largest 3: TC Williams, Battlefield, Lake Braddock
1A: -475 (50 teams) 16 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: Highland, Council, King & Queen
Largest 3: Washington & Lee, George Wythe-Wytheville, Essex
2A: 476-900 (74 teams) 32 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: Brunwick, Northampton, Riverheads
Largest 3: Abingdon, Hidden Valley, Skyline
3A: 901-1600 (92 teams) 32 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: Booker T. Washington, Petersburg, Brookville
Largest 3: Atlee, Nansemond River, Varina
4A: 1601+ (98 teams) 32 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: Riverside, William Fleming, Woodgrove
Largest 3: TC Williams, Battlefield, Lake Braddock
@obguthr, with 2019-2020 ADM numbers I pulled off of vhsl.org yesterday
1A:≤ 475 (52 teams) 16 teams football playoffs
Smallest 3: Highland, Council, King & Queen
Largest 3: Northampton, Riverheads, Washington & Lee
2A: 476-900 (70 teams) 32 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: Brunswick, Buffalo Gap, Grayson County (This doesn't look right as they are in 1A this year but that's what is on the website)
Largest 3: Booker T. Washington, Hidden Valley, Skyline
3A: 901-1600 (94 teams) 32 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: Petersburg, Brookville, Willian Monroe
Largest 3: Midlothian, Woodgrove, Riverside
4A: 1601 ≥ (99 teams) 32 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: Deep Creek, Hemitage, Maury
Largest 3: TC Williams, Lake Braddock, Chantilly
Not working on top of you but I had pulled all the adm numbers yesterday to argue with, lol. I really don't care how its divided up but like @longtimerhsfan has stated a few times when this topic comes up, do your research and develop your plan then stick with it for more than 2 to 4 years.
1A:≤ 475 (52 teams) 16 teams football playoffs
Smallest 3: Highland, Council, King & Queen
Largest 3: Northampton, Riverheads, Washington & Lee
2A: 476-900 (70 teams) 32 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: Brunswick, Buffalo Gap, Grayson County (This doesn't look right as they are in 1A this year but that's what is on the website)
Largest 3: Booker T. Washington, Hidden Valley, Skyline
3A: 901-1600 (94 teams) 32 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: Petersburg, Brookville, Willian Monroe
Largest 3: Midlothian, Woodgrove, Riverside
4A: 1601 ≥ (99 teams) 32 team football playoffs
Smallest 3: Deep Creek, Hemitage, Maury
Largest 3: TC Williams, Lake Braddock, Chantilly
Not working on top of you but I had pulled all the adm numbers yesterday to argue with, lol. I really don't care how its divided up but like @longtimerhsfan has stated a few times when this topic comes up, do your research and develop your plan then stick with it for more than 2 to 4 years.
One last note on a 4 division reclass. I wonder how long Highland Springs' reign of terror would have lasted being in the same class as Oscar Smith and Westfield? And Riverheads'....
Six is too many, playoffs are too long in football...etc. etc. We have teams with losing records making the playoffs regularly. Nothing is perfect but VHSL manages to screw things up all.in the name of the almighty $$$$ usually.
I think there will be major changes, what I not know, but sounds as if VHSL will shorten football season. It is too long. Problem with VHSL is a small number of schools dictate policies for the whole state. They look out for their own interests and shaft most everyone else.
The easiest way to trim the season length is to just thin the playoffs from 32 teams per class to 16. As much as I would like a 4 class system, 16 teams would leave some deserving teams out. With the current 6 class system, there are only about 52 teams per class. 16 playoff teams per class is adequate.
Just for an idea, here is what you would have
1. Stuarts Draft
2. Ridgeview/Thomas Jefferson
3. Ridgeview/ Thomas Jefferson
4. Buckingham
5. Appomattox
6. Union
7. Clarke County
8. Radford
9. Luray
10. Gretna
11. Graham
12. King William
13. Poquoson
14. Greensville
15. Nottoway
16. Central Wise/Strasburg
And just because I mentioned it earlier:
5a
1. Highland Springs
2. Manchester
3. Salem VB
4. Deep Run
5. Maury
6. Stone Bridge
7. Mountain View/Varina
8. Mountain View/Varina
9. Indian River
10. Princess Anne
11. Woodside
12. Clover Hill
13. Nansemond River
14. Prince George
15. Deep Creek
16. Woodgrove
Besides that travel, in 5a these are the numbers for what is now 4 regions: A-7, B-6, C-2, D-1. And winning records left out by Region: A- 2 (6-4), B-2 (7-3, 6-4), C-1 (6-4), D-2
And just using those 2 Classes: 2 Regional Finalists out (North Stafford and East Rockingham), along with 1 State Semifinalist (North Stafford).
And actually think about this for a second, if the Top 8 from each "side" were taken, that leaves even more out, including 9-1 Woodside. But an even deeper dive, if everything else stayed same (Points, Schedules, Districts, etc) then teams would ABSOLUTELY be punished for what part of the state they live in/schedule affiliation.
I preferred the East/West playoffs, but if it's what we have now vs teams getting left out I would say what we have 100 times
A lot of good discussion around this topic but the one thing that concerns me that hasn’t been as big a talking point on this thread is that the head of the VHSL wants the championship games on Thanksgiving weekend which is ridiculous. Why would you try to shoehorn the biggest event for that sport into a weekend that has “distractions” that can take away from the overall gate? Families traveling, Black Friday(usually no impact), VT/UVA, and countless other college rivalry games. IMO this speaks to the incompetence of that organization to administer the high school sports in the state moving forward. No system is perfect and there are certainly tweaks we all can and have mentioned that we wouldn’t like to see but a major overhaul without having foresight into what it will look like 10 years from now is asinine. I agree with HR6 that the power-base within the VHSL dictates to the masses what is beneficial for their schools ignoring the sentiment and wishes of the whole of the member schools.
Yep, Blacksburg was 5-5, Galax was 6-4 the last time Riverheads didn't win (2015 I think). Probably some bigger schools have as well, or even further back. I just used recently
We will find out soon; their new high school (2021) will have Class 6 capacity and that will push Varina down into Class 4 (talk about s reign of terror)
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Guess I'll toss my hat in the ring
0-400 1A - 16 Team Playoff
401-750 2A - 32 Team Playoff
751-1450 3A - 32 Team Playoff
1451-Above 4A - 32 Team Playoff
Only 8 football playing schools in 1A would be more than half as small as the theoretical largest school. Only two schools in 4A would be more than twice the size of the theoretical smallest school.
I'd also be open to VHSL begging the private schools to join, except for boarding schools, under the same rules that LCA follows. Lets say, theoretically, a bunch of private schools join, that may move 1A up to a 32 team playoff also.
0-400 1A - 16 Team Playoff
401-750 2A - 32 Team Playoff
751-1450 3A - 32 Team Playoff
1451-Above 4A - 32 Team Playoff
Only 8 football playing schools in 1A would be more than half as small as the theoretical largest school. Only two schools in 4A would be more than twice the size of the theoretical smallest school.
I'd also be open to VHSL begging the private schools to join, except for boarding schools, under the same rules that LCA follows. Lets say, theoretically, a bunch of private schools join, that may move 1A up to a 32 team playoff also.
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If anything maybe eliminate one playoff game. The eastA did have teams with winning records. I think Petersburg at 5-5 was the worst record.
Personally, I believe Class 1 should be further reduced to those schools with enrollments under 350 or so regardless of the number of schools that entails. The remaining schools can be evenly divided into 3 or 4 more classifications.
There isn't a ton of difference between a school with 450 students and a school with 650 students. But a school with under 300 students trying to compete with a school with 450 students is another story altogether.
There isn't a ton of difference between a school with 450 students and a school with 650 students. But a school with under 300 students trying to compete with a school with 450 students is another story altogether.
The numbers game really shows up at class 1. I would make under 400 the number (roughly 40 teams) and have a 16 team playoff. Realign the district's to a total of 8 and have district champions play a nearby districts runner up in the 1st round of the playoffs. This would make district play much more meaningful and reward district champs with a home playoff game.Then I would add 4 more classes with roughly 65-75 schools in each. Class 2, 401-750. Class 3, 751-1250. Class 4, 1251-1850. Class 5, 1851 and up. Again realigning to have 8 districts per class and a 16 team playoff of district champs and runners up. You could do away with the point system of ranking teams. Simply setup a 16 team bracket attempting to keep districts geographically closer together. 1st round district champ hosts. 2nd round would alternate between districts each year. Semi-finals would be played at neutral sites with your Championship at a College stadium. In the big 4 classes you would be looking at 8 or 9 district games with 1 or 2 non-district games before playoff time. Using this past season as an example. The first game for everybody would be Friday 8/23 and ever yo one would play once a week for those first 10 weeks. Playoffs would start 11/1. Take Thanksgiving break and then come back the last week of November and have championship weekend 11/30 or 12/1 and have it all wrapped up with a nice bow. And with Class 1, I would like to take a close look at an 8 game schedule with a later start/earlier finish and/or bye week(s). Injuries are a reality at all levels of football. But when you've only got 20-30 on a roster and 1/4 of those don't contribute. A couple of Injuries can damn near cause a team to forfeit. 2 less games with a break or two would do wonders for some of these kids that basically never come off the field. Now that I think I about it. Reducing or banning off-season programs outside of the weight room and allow only 4-6 quarters of scrimmage in the summer wouldn't hurt either.
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@Reecesdad, I like the numbers on the classification breakdown but I do not like the district part of this plan. There are a ton of split districts that have geographic and historical ties so that part is impractical IMO. Also I am not sold the points system needs to be scraped but a revision is in order because SOS is not a consideration in the current system. If everyone would get back on board for an East/West alignment with crossover semifinal at a neutral field closer to the higher seed then we can move forward. I don't have a say but if I did, I would not relent on keeping at least a piece of home field advantage. If you outpoint me for the higher seed (new system, not the archaic one we have) then you shouldn't have to travel 4 hours to play at a neutral site just to make it fair for me. That is dependent on getting a system that rewards playing and beating quality teams that beat other quality teams. If you eat cupcake then you shouldn't be rewarded. The district format could reward a mediocre district with a phenomenal seed for which that did little to earn, in my opinion. I would also have 16 in each half of the state and if 12 come from one region then so be it. In the end the goal is to get the two best teams to meet in the final game not round 3 or 4 of a playoff tree. If you are dead set on limiting the field in 1A to 16 total with 8 on each side then so be it but there would definitely be some teams that are decent left out. Not powerhouse teams like in other divisions but I really don't mind having another game for some of the boarder-line teams that could surprise someone if the breaks go their way. As for roster size and all that, look if you limit the overall size of the 1A classification then you cant keep putting stipulations on so that a team with 3 athletes and 17 kids taking up roster spots gets an advantage over a team with 1 outstanding player with 13 role players and 14 dressed out to watch the action. It goes too far to adjust what admittedly is wrong with the system now. I apologize for picking apart your post but it is one of the few original ones on here so I wanted to piggy back a smidge. By the way banning offseason programs outside of weight room would be great but the genie is out the bottle on that one with all the 7v7 stuff and no real hard line dead period. We all know of teams that basically work all year and frankly some of them are laughable when viewing the results.
Again, solid post and I didn't mean to pick up on your post but everyone only looks at the numbers and or games played in football. The system in place is bad but we could have worse and I don't think it would take much to tip this the wrong way and cause even less participation across the state in most sports. A warning to the VHSL, be careful in making your next move. There is a lot riding on the meetings around this issue.
Again, solid post and I didn't mean to pick up on your post but everyone only looks at the numbers and or games played in football. The system in place is bad but we could have worse and I don't think it would take much to tip this the wrong way and cause even less participation across the state in most sports. A warning to the VHSL, be careful in making your next move. There is a lot riding on the meetings around this issue.
each region could remedy that any time they wanted to by deciding how many teams they will allow in the regionals
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I however prefer a five classification system
Class 5 1-63
Class 4 64-126
Class 3 127-189
Class 2 190-252
Class 1 253-317
Class 5 1-63
Class 4 64-126
Class 3 127-189
Class 2 190-252
Class 1 253-317
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