You make the call '16 No. 5 (tough one)

[White hat]

OK, enough with the easy ones.

Team A is trailing by 1 point with 5 seconds to go. They are outside of field goal range so they try a hail mary.

A88 and B11 are running stride for stride toward the endzone. As the ball comes down short of the goal line, both players jump from the 6 yard line. B jumps higher, makes the interception, and comes down at the 3. The players continue into the endzone with B11 in sole possession. In the endzone, A88 strips the ball and it's loose in the endzone. Two other players, B22 and A80, are at the 2 yard line when B22, in an effort to prevent A80 from recovering the ball, grabs his facemask.

B11 tries to fall on the ball but it bounces away, goes back into the field of play where B15 falls on it for the recovery at the B 2 yard line. Time expires during the play.

You make the call.

 

[onlylabs]

White hat.....to clarify scenario.... you say: "comes down a the 3".....meaning lands on feet and continue into endzone or some other part of the body down at 3 and rolls into endzone.
Sorry affects my answer (maybe it shouldn't!!)

 

[Olduvatechmason]

I'm thinking it's a touchback if his momentum carried him into the endzone. Not sure about application of penalty as clock ran out. Game over?

 

[White hat]

Comes down on his feet at the 3 and maintains balance, so he's on his feet and running into the endzone and he's on his feet when the ball is stripped in the endzone..

 

[onlylabs]

My first thought would have agreed with olduvatechmason on the touchback as I was thinking in high school once it crosses goalline it would be dead but with more thought I think that is just for free kicks as I remember a kid against us this year running an interception out of the endzone.
So....it's live through the recovery by B on the 2. The penalty is the tricky part. If it were offensive game is over. If it is defensive we all know game (1/2) cannot end on a defensive penalty. But does the 3 yards B11 had the ball constitute a change of possession? If so does the fumble and lack of possession during the foul change things again??
I am going to say possession by B11 was established so interception, fumble, recovered by team B on 2. Enforce the penalty on B so 1/2 the distance to the goal. Ball spotted at 1 yard line of B. But all academic because time expired...game over.

 

[Olduvatechmason]

I'm glad I'm not an official!!! Way too confusing even with several days and the internet to try and figure it out.

 

[DinwiddieProud]

Uncle!

 

[White hat]

OK, the only guys who are regualrly chipping in have made guesses, so I won't wait long for the answer, although I think I'll post it in piece by piece, with your comments welcome along the way.

But first, a hint.

In the original post I labeled the teams as A and B. I did not say which was home and which was the visitor. This makes no difference in the actaul ruling, of course, but it will make a difference in the number of law enforcement officers needed to make sure the officials make it home safely.

 

[DinwiddieProud]

That leads me to believe that somehow that visiting team won the game. To be a shocker, B must be the home team, and A was awarded the score? Setting up near riot conditions. Maybe a safety, so they lost by 1?

But every time I think I have it figured out, I see another factor that changes my mind. (This is why I officiate from the stands with the rest of the bleacher bums!)

 

[onlylabs]

so I guess I feel pressure to change my answer!
"after further review".......
facemask penalty is enforced 1/2 the distance from the 2 and team A is given one untimed down from B's 1 yard line.

So I guess possession did change but then the penalty occurs as a "loose ball" foul??

 

[White hat]

OK, starting from scratch.Let's say there is a pass in the middle of the quarter when time is not an issue, and it is intercepted at the 3 by a DB who is running toward the endzone when he makes the catch. His momentum takes him into the endzone and he is tackled or takes a knee -- the play ends in the endzone without a fumble. What's the ruling?

 

[DinwiddieProud]

INT, touchback, game over? The foul was after the play was over?

 

[White hat]

I'll answer my own question above because there is a lot more going on in the OP, but it's something a lot of people don't know:

If a player from B or R -- meaning a defensive player or a kick returner -- catches the ball between the goal line and the 5 yard line and his momentum carries him into the endzone where he is downed, the ball comes out to the spot of the possession change. A kick into the endzone is always a touchback and a pass that's intercepted in the endzone is a touchback if the defender does not return it out of the endzone.

A pass or kick possessed in the field of play cannot be a touchback. If the ball is possessed by B or R outside of the 5 and carried in, it's a safety. If it's possessed between the goal line and 5, but the player is not moving toward the goal line when possession is established, then he cannot retreat on his own into the endzone or it could be a safety.

In the OP I said B11 jumps from the 6. Don't let that throw you. It has nothing to do with the play. I put that in so you'd know he was heading toward the goal line. The fact he came down at the 3 is the part I wanted to get across. The back judge should have dropped a beanbag at the 3 to mark the spot of the catch in case the the ball becomes dead in the endzone.

So the result of the play cannot be a touchback, even if the play ended in the endzone. It didn't, which means that everything I've said above about the momentum exception doesn't apply to this play, but I went through all that because I thought it was important to explain why touchback cannot be the answer.

Any other guesses?

 

[White hat]

This next part is somewhat arcane. I'll try to write it as short as possible.

In penalty enforcement there are two kinds of plays -- a running play and a loose ball play. This is confusing because it seems straight forward, but it's not. For instance, a 'loose ball play" is a play that has a planned loose ball -- a pass or scrimmage kick. A fumble is not part of that, even though the ball is loose.

What's more, a single down can be more than one play. On a pass or kick, the part of the play before and during the pass or kick is part of a loose ball play, but once it's possessed the play is a running play. None of this matters except for penalty enforcement. The enforcements are different for A and B, depending on the all-but-one principle. Again, this is confusing because it should be "team in possession" and "team not in possession." For penalty enforcement, A and B switch when there is a change of possession.

A quick note: the ball is always in "team possession," even if it's loose. It's in possession of the last team to hold it, so if it goes out of bounds while loose it stil belongs to the team that last possessed it.

So where are the important enforcement spots? For fouls against the team in possession, the enforcement spot is either the spot of the foul or the end of the run, depending on which is farther back. If the ball is fumbled, then the enforcement spot is the end of the run -- the spot of the fumble.

In the original play, there is a foul by the team in possession during a loose ball (but not during a loose ball play) so that foul will be enforced from the spot of the fumble. That spot is in the endzone. Any foul by the team in possession where the enforcement spot is in the endzone is a safety.

So in the original play, the team trailing by 1 with 5 seconds left throws an interception and wins by 1 point.

Anyone care to predict what the reaction will be for Team B's coaches, players and fans?

 

[DinwiddieProud]

Holy cow, man.

You know how much respect I have for you guys, but across the state, if this exact senerio was happened on a Friday night, how many White Hats and crews would get it right in the heat of the moment?

Is full body armor and a Delta Force extraction part of your benefit package?

 

[White hat]

I was at a cookout last night with some guys from my association and presented this play to them. The guys who work as referees got it right. The guys who work other positions did not. I would be interested to know how many would get it.

Thankfully, if that play happens once in 20 years, I'd be shocked.