A Third For Bird - Bird Wins 5A Title 22-19

[CRF4Dan]

If I told you LC Bird would win this game after the first quarter of play, you likely would have laughed at me. The first quarter could not have started any worse for the Skyhawks. A fumble on the kick return to open the game, a punt and a turnover on downs. The turnover on downs stung a bit just for the fact that Bird needed just a yard but Mines lost a yard rather than gaining a yard at the Huskies 21. The Skyhawk offense after one quarter of play had just 66 yards compared to that of 144 for the Huskies. The Huskies ran 18 plays and scored twice on their three possessions of the first quarter. The only time they did not score was when Reimers fumbled the ball.

The game was one of momentum. The Huskies had the momentum early on, after a quarter of play but in the second quarter, momentum clearly swung in the favor of the Skyhawks. The first momentum shift came when LC Bird was held to three and out on their first possession of the second quarter. Bird punted the ball 14 yards and the ball took a bounce, touched a Huskie and the Skyhawks recovered. Bird would score behind the running game of Stephen Mines and after holding Tuscarora to three and out, the Skyhawks would again score and take the lead with a 7-play 80-yard drive that was capped by another Stephen Mines touchdown. Clearly it seemed Bird would take this game over with less than three minutes to go but that was not the case. Instead Tuscarora in less than two minutes would march 70 yards and answer a furious comeback by Bird with a touchdown of their own.

Tuscarora's third touchdown of the game did not come from Reimers but rather it came when Daniel Smith hit Duron Norris with a 39-yard pass to the endzone. That score came with five seconds to go in the half and there was little Bird could do other than run one play. In one half of play momentum had shifted from Tuscarora to Bird and now back in the Huskies favor.

The third quarter proved to bed a defensive struggle as the first three possessions between the teams were three and outs eating up nearly 7 minutes of the clock. On the final possession of the third quarter for Bird, the Skyhawks JB Wright saw his first action of the game as he would carry the bulk of the load as the Skyhawks began moving the ball down the field. Momentum once more was on Bird's side and that carried over into the fourth quarter when Jalen Elliott hit Waymond Pate with a 32-yard touchdown pass to give the Skyhawks a lead of 20-19 and then Elliott hit his favorite target Tyler Wilkins with a 3-yard pass for the two-point conversion.

The Huskies fought back… They began from their own 37 with 10:14 to go in the game reaching the 41 of Bird and facing a 2nd & 9. On third down the Skyhawks were hit with a penalty for pass interference and that pushed the Huskies to the 25 of Bird but credit the Skyhawk defense for not allowing much of anything on offense after the penalty. The Huskies could not convert when they needed to, particularly on 3rd & 9 and 4th & 9.

Tuscarora got the ball back with 2:42 to go and they looked to Reimers who picked up two yards but then Daniel Smith was sacked on the next play for a loss. Reimers who after a big first quarter had been contained for the most part carried on third down but only picked up the yard lost in the Daniel Smith sack. That brought about a fourth down play with 1:30 to go in the game.

If Tuscarora could get a first down, they could put themselves in position to tie if not win the game. At the 50, the Huskies took a shot down the field, Daniel Smith hits Nicolas Speroni with a pass but as soon as he catches it he is hit by a Skyhawk defender and is unable to keep possession. That in essence was the game.

Had Speroni been able to hold on to the ball, who knows what would have happened but Bird took over on downs with 1:16 to go and ran just enough plays to run out the clock and seal the deal for Bird.

Like I said, after one quarter of play, Tuscarora seemed as though they were well on their way to their first state title but Bird did what many questioned if they could do, myself included and that is stop Noah Reimers. In the first quarter, Reimers ran for 67 yards… he would finish with a 129. Nearly half of his carries came in the first quarter of action.


SCORING SUMMARY
1st QTR-
7:42- (Tuscarora)Noah Reimers 4-yard touchdown run, Finley Underhill PAT good; Tuscarora 7-0.

2nd QTR-
8:43- (Tuscarora)Noah Reimers 2-yard touchdown run, two-point conversion fails; Tuscarora 13-0.
6:44- (Bird)Stephen Mines 4-yard touchdown run, Keaton Riley PAT; Tuscarora 13-7.
1:52- (Bird)Stephen Mines 6-yard touchdown run, Keaton Riley PAT; Bird 14-13.
:05- (Tuscarora)39-yard touchdown pass from Daniel Smith to Duron Norris, two-point conversion fails; Tuscarora 19-14.

3rd QTR-
No scoring.

4th QTR-
10:22- (Bird)32-yard touchdown pass from Jalen Elliott to Waymond Pate, two-point conversion between Elliott and Tyler Wilkins is good; Bird 22-19.


PLAYERS OF THE GAME
LC Bird Offense: Stephen Mines with 21 carries and 112 yards on the ground and two touchdowns in his final game as a Skyhawk.
LC Bird Defense: Rayshard Ashby with another strong game defensively as he had 10 solo tackles and one sack and he still has two more years at Bird.

Tuscarora Offense: Noah Reimers with 31 carries and 129 yards on the ground and two touchdowns in his final game as a Huskie.
Tuscarora Defense: Elijah Moore with 6 tackles and 2 broken passes.


TEAM STATS
First Downs: Bird 17 Tuscarora 13
Net Yards Rushing: Bird 226 Tuscarora 161
Net Yards Passing: Bird 92 Tuscarora 107
Total Offensive Yards: Bird 318 Tuscarora 268
Total Offensive Plays: Bird 53 Tuscarora 51
Penalties: Bird 6-99 Tuscarora 7-74
Time of Possession: Bird 24:50 Tuscarora 23:10
Fumbles: Number-Lost Bird 2-2 Tuscarora 2-2
Kickoffs-Yards Bird 4-141 Tuscarora 4-132
Kickoff Returns: Bird 2-17 Tuscarora 3-41

INDIVIDUAL STATS
Rushing:
Noah Reimers 31 for 129 - 2 Touchdowns(Tuscarora)
Stephen Mines 21 for 112 - 2 Touchdowns(LC Bird)
JB Wright 14 for 63(LC Bird)
Tyler Wilkins 2 for 38(LC Bird)
Daniel Smith 6 for 30(Tuscarora)
Jalen Elliott 5 for 15(LC Bird)
Bryce Sorrell 2 for 29Tuscarora)

Passing:
Daniel Smith 7 of 12 for 107 - 1 Touchdown(Tuscarora)
Jalen Elliott 6 of 10 for 92 - 1 Touchdown(LC Bird)

Receiving:
Tyler Wilkins 4 for 58(LC Bird)
Duron Norris 2 for 49 - 1 Touchdown(Tuscarora)
Noah Reimers 3 for 39(Tuscarora)
Waymond Pate 2 for 34 - 1 Touchdown(LC Bird)
Nicholas Speroni 1 for 12(Tuscarora)
Bryce Sorrell 1 for 7(Tuscarora)

Defensive Leaders:
Rayshard Ashby 10 tackles, 1 sack(LC Bird)
Isiah Moore 8 tackles(LC Bird)
Jack Corso 7.5 tackles(Tuscarora)
Nicholas Guiliano 7 tackles(Tuscarora)
William Larson 6 tackles(Tuscarora)
Elijah Moore 6 tackles, 2 pass disruptions(Tuscarora)
Tyler Wilkins 5 tackles, 1 fumble recovery(LC Bird)
Tomar Branch 4 tackles, 1 forced fumble(LC Bird)
Maliek Hamilton 4 tackles(LC Bird)


EXTRA POINTS
Past three trips to Scott Stadium Bird has fallen behind but come back to win and won by a touchdown or less.

Looking ahead to 2015, Bird returns several key players such as Jalen Elliott at quarterback, JB Wright running the ball, Waymond Pate who scored the winning touchdown, Rayshard Ashby on defense along with Isiah Moore and Tomar Branch. Not saying they can four-peat but a winning tradition and skill players returning will make this team a contender yet again next year.

I said the score would be 35-24 in favor of Tuscarora. I underestimated the defense of Bird to stop Reimers. Coming into this game, no one had been able to stop Reimers or hold Tuscarora to less than 33 points but Bird's defense did just that.

The loss of Reimers will hurt Tuscarora but with excellent coaching and players such as Duron Norris, Elijah Moore and quarterback Daniel Smith returning, Tuscarora will be back in the thick of things next season. I'm sure we have not heard the last of them.

Game could have gone either way to be honest. If Speroni catches the pass at the end, who knows… If Bird is unable to recover the ball after the 14-yard punt who knows... Football is a game of momentum and it swings from quarter to quarter, play to play. Tuscarora came into the game with the better record but momentum kept swinging Bird's way after the first quarter.

Coach Burnette and Huskies showed class even in defeat praising the support of their fans as well as crediting Coach Fortune who the Huskies lost before the season began. You could tell by the emotion after the game just how much he meant to the program, the players and the coaching staff.

Coach Bedwell credited the ability of the Skyhawks to be able to come back even being down 13-0 early on to their tough schedule, tight games and even the losses. Bird had to overcome adversity time and time again this season unlike their previous two title runs. In a tight game like todays, Bedwell felt that is what put them over the top as opposed to Tuscarora who rarely had any close games this season minus the Broad Run regular season game.

If you are not ready to see the season come to an end, come to Randolph-Macon next week for the Big River Rivalry next Saturday to see some of the Skyhawks for the final time. I'll see you there.

This post was edited on 12/14 12:28 AM by CRF4Dan

 

[VaPrepsRod]

L.C. Bird 22, Tuscarora 19 -- Box score

Tuscarora post-game audio

L.C. Bird post-game audio

 

[VaPrepsRod]

Photo Feature from the 5A State Championship from Kim Black (81 images)

 

[GilliamRatings]

I've now seen these stats from three different sources. They are some flaws here. You can't have 99 yards on 6 penalties in high school. It's impossible. Somebody is also counting plays that were accepted penalties on the defense as pass attempts (and incomplete passes at that). A pass attempt would only be credited if there was a penalty on the defense if the pass were caught and the yardage was tacked on to the result of the play. Daniel Smith was also credited in these stats with an incomplete pass that was thrown by Reimers:

Here's the stats for real, even if not official:
LCB Tusc
First Downs 16 14
Rushing 47-198 39-160
Passing 5-7-91 7-12-107
Total Yards 289 267
Penalties 6-65 7-69
Turnovers 1 fum 2 fum
Punts 3-20.0 2-45.5
Return Yards 16 42
Time of Possession 24:50 23:10

Rushing: LCB: Mines 21-112-2TD, Wright 16-66, Elliott 8-19, Pate 1-2, Gore 1- -1; Tus: Reimers 31-128-2TD; Smith 6-29, Sorrell 2-3

Passing: LCB: Elliot 5-7-91-1TD; Tus: Smith 7-11-107-1TD, Reimers 0-1-0

Receiving: LCB: Wilkins 4-59, Pate 1-32-1TD; Tus: Reimers 3-39, Norris 2-49-1TD, Speroni 1-12, Sorrell 1-7

Here's how to double check yardages:

Total Yards on a drive equals rushing yards+passing yards-offensive penalty yards+defensive penalty yards.

so Tuscarora's Drives:

FBird 44 to 0 44 rush + 0 pass - 0 offensive penalty + 0 defensive penalty = 44 yards
own 39 to Bird 39 22 + 0 - 0 + 0 = 22 yards
own 22 to 0 48 + 30 - 0 + 0 = 78 yards
own 32 to own 36 2 + 7 - 5 + 0 = 4 yards
own 30 to Bird 0 17 + 63 - 10 + 0 = 70 yards
own 41 to 50 9 + 0 - 0 + 0 = 9 yards
own 46 to own 44 -2 + 0 - 0 + 0 = -2 yards
own 37 to Bird 24 17 + 7 - 0 + 15 = 39 yards
own 47 to 50 3 + 0 - 0 + 0 = 3 yards

so all yardage is accounted for: 160 rushing yards, 107 passing yards, 15 yards in offensive penalties on Tusc, 15 yards in defensive penalties on Bird.

Bird's drives:
own 20 to own 47 24 + 3 - 0 + 0 = 27 yards
own 39 to Tus 22 14 + 0 - 0 + 25 = 39 yards
own 35 to own 38 3 + 0 - 0 + 0 = 3 yards
Tus 43 to 0 49 + 0 - 10 + 4 = 43 yards
own 20 to 0 21 + 44 - 0 + 15 = 80 yards
own 41 to 50 9 + 0 - 0 + 0 = 9 yards
own 49 to Tus 42 9 + 0 - 0 + 0 = 9 yards
own 9 to 0 47 + 44 - 10 + 10 = 91 yards
own 24 to own 26 17 + 0 - 15 + 0 = 2 yards
50 to Tus 45 5 + 0 - 0 + 0

s0 all yardage is accounted for 198 rushing yards, 91 passing yards, 35 yards in offensive penalties on Bird, 54 yards in defensive penalties on Tus.

Bird also had a 15 yard penalty on special teams.

Check it from the game film if you like.

 

[CRF4Dan]

I don't know anyone can claim "official" or "real" stats. Stats are all eye in the beholder. The beholder in this case was the VHSL office who was giving us stat sheets the entire game in the press box as well as a whole packet after the game. I trust those guys knew what they were doing and the stats were accurate. That is why I did not think to double check or even question the stats... That said, I do understand your math regarding the penalties and see your point there.
This post was edited on 12/14 10:05 AM by CRF4Dan

This post was edited on 12/14 1:37 PM by CRF4Dan

 

[GilliamRatings]

They really have no idea what they are doing. It's a shame high school statistics are done so poorly, because they are easy to check, per my sheet. Darren and I are the only ones to have done them for Bird going way back to the 80's. Done consistently, and by the book. First Downs, penalties, etc., handled by the rules. Every yard accounted for, just like an accountant's. The stuff we've seen other people do over the years made us want to puke.

The secret is to make sure you write the yard line down before every snap. I've seen statisticians have 90 yards of offense for their team on a drive that started at their own 20, and featured no penalties, because they kept rounding up every play. The other secret is that yardage COUNTS on a penalty. So if a hold is called four yards down field the back who ran the ball gets credit for those four yards (it is not done that way in the NFL because their basic spot is so often the line of scrimmage instead of the spot of the foul). The 10 yard penalty would result in the team starting the next play 6 yards back. Unfortunately, for Quarterbacks, these rules hurt their rushing stats. Holds in the backfield on a pass play, for instance end up with the QB getting credit for a rushing loss to the spot of the foul. Teams with rushing QB's ignore that rule, I've noticed.

Nevertheless, every single yard on the field must be accounted for. Probably the only yards you don't really see in a good stat sheet is how far a pass traveled past the line of scrimmage before it was intercepted. I actually am an advocate of that being some sort of official stat just to make it complete.

I remember we were playing a team one time and a team had 1st and 10 on their own 24 yard line. They completed a long pass to our 42. The PA announcer asked me, "How many yards?"

"Thirty-four," I responded. The announcer said, "Dixon complete to Gooden for 34 yards." I swear to you this is true, "the statistician for the other teams says, "Thirty-four? That was more like sixty. Write down sixty, Tommy." And they did. I wondered how such a bad team had a QB that threw for so many yards.

 

[CRF4Dan]

Well usually I keep track of stats during a game myself but I didn't do it for this game because I thought I could trust their stats. Perhaps I was wrong.

 

[GilliamRatings]

The official stats at the state championship are usually pretty good, but they're usually done by a statistician provided by the home team. So you never know.

These weren't bad, just a couple of question marks.

 

[VaPrepsRod]

Originally posted by GilliamRatings:

The official stats at the state championship are usually pretty good, but they're usually done by a statistician provided by the home team. So you never know.

These weren't bad, just a couple of question marks.

I don't think that's been true for at 4-5 years.

 

[GilliamRatings]

I just hope whoever did it for this game doesn't do it regularly for anyone. I would have no faith left in any stats from any of the games.

 

[GilliamRatings]

The bad thing is that it'll NEVER be corrected. Bird will eternally hold the VHSL record for average yards per penalty at 16.5. This is a tough record to break since the most yards you can get on a high school penalty is 15. The VHSL book of records still doesn't have any of Bird's performances from the last two years included, so it's possible it'll never get in there. I suppose.

 

[VaPrepsRod]

Originally posted by GilliamRatings:
They really have no idea what they are doing. It's a shame high school statistics are done so poorly, because they are easy to check, per my sheet. Darren and I are the only ones to have done them for Bird going way back to the 80's. Done consistently, and by the book. First Downs, penalties, etc., handled by the rules. Every yard accounted for, just like an accountant's. The stuff we've seen other people do over the years made us want to puke.

The secret is to make sure you write the yard line down before every snap. I've seen statisticians have 90 yards of offense for their team on a drive that started at their own 20, and featured no penalties, because they kept rounding up every play. The other secret is that yardage COUNTS on a penalty. So if a hold is called four yards down field the back who ran the ball gets credit for those four yards (it is not done that way in the NFL because their basic spot is so often the line of scrimmage instead of the spot of the foul). The 10 yard penalty would result in the team starting the next play 6 yards back. Unfortunately, for Quarterbacks, these rules hurt their rushing stats. Holds in the backfield on a pass play, for instance end up with the QB getting credit for a rushing loss to the spot of the foul. Teams with rushing QB's ignore that rule, I've noticed.

Nevertheless, every single yard on the field must be accounted for. Probably the only yards you don't really see in a good stat sheet is how far a pass traveled past the line of scrimmage before it was intercepted. I actually am an advocate of that being some sort of official stat just to make it complete.

I remember we were playing a team one time and a team had 1st and 10 on their own 24 yard line. They completed a long pass to our 42. The PA announcer asked me, "How many yards?"

"Thirty-four," I responded. The announcer said, "Dixon complete to Gooden for 34 yards." I swear to you this is true, "the statistician for the other teams says, "Thirty-four? That was more like sixty. Write down sixty, Tommy." And they did. I wondered how such a bad team had a QB that threw for so many yards.

I've been confused by you in this thread.

First, you say that you can't have 99 yards on six penalties but then you say that yards count even on penalties and that you have to account for every yard of a drive.

So, what happens in this instance...

Ball is on 20.
Running back breaks for 13 yards.
Holding is called at the line of scrimmage. Ten yards from spot.
Ball moves back to the 10.

If the statistician gave the 13 yards to the running back. Isn't the penalty 23 yards?

Otherwise, assuming that they score with no other penalties on the drive, you are awarding 93 yards of individual offense on an 80-yard drive.

 

[GilliamRatings]

I've been confused by you in this thread.

First, you say that you can't have 99 yards on six penalties but then you say that yards count even on penalties and that you have to account for every yard of a drive.

So, what happens in this instance...

Ball is on 20.
Running back breaks for 13 yards.
Holding is called at the line of scrimmage. Ten yards from spot.
Ball moves back to the 10.

If the statistician gave the 13 yards to the running back. Isn't the penalty 23 yards?

Otherwise, assuming that they score with no other penalties on the drive, you are awarding 93 yards of individual offense on an 80-yard drive.

Back gets credit for 1 carry of zero yards. Offense gets credit for 1 penalty of 10 yards. In a situation like this the runner gets credit for yardage to the SPOT OF THE FOUL, not to where his forward progress was eventually stopped. The idea being any yards past the spot of the foul were obtained illegally, so the runner doesn't get credit for them. So all 10 yards between successive snaps of the football are accounted for. It is possible that the spot of the foul is actually ahead of where the ball carrier gets tackled. In that case, the basic spot is the end of the play, and the back would get credit for where he ended up. Think of it this way: the runner gets credit for the yardage (positive or negative) up to the spot where the refs are marking off the penalty.

You have to be careful though. The back only gets credit for a carry and yardage if it's a foul with a basic spot at the spot of the foul. Some penalties are always marked off from line of scrimmage (these don't count as carries), but almost of these are dead ball fouls, so it's easy to distinguish.

Runners also get credit for a carry and yardage on any defensive foul that is tacked on to the end of the run. Of the foul is marked off from the line of scrimmage there is no yardage or carry for the runner.

 

[GilliamRatings]

Back gets credit for 1 carry of zero yards. Offense gets credit for 1 penalty of 10 yards. In a situation like this the runner gets credit for yardage to the SPOT OF THE FOUL, not to where his forward progress was eventually stopped. The idea being any yards past the spot of the foul were obtained illegally, so the runner doesn't get credit for them. So all 10 yards between successive snaps of the football are accounted for. It is possible that the spot of the foul is actually ahead of where the ball carrier gets tackled. In that case, the basic spot is the end of the play, and the back would get credit for where he ended up. Think of it this way: the runner gets credit for the yardage (positive or negative) up to the spot where the refs are marking off the penalty.

You have to be careful though. The back only gets credit for a carry and yardage if it's a foul with a basic spot at the spot of the foul. Some penalties are always marked off from line of scrimmage (these don't count as carries), but almost of these are dead ball fouls, so it's easy to distinguish.

Runners also get credit for a carry and yardage on any defensive foul that is tacked on to the end of the run. Of the foul is marked off from the line of scrimmage there is no yardage or carry for the runner.

The other time this gets nasty is if there is a half the distance to the goal penalty. Say, the ball is spotted on the 32. A play is run and a face mask penalty is called on the defense and the ball ends up on the 7 1/2 yard line. How does the statistician award yards? Answer: Since a face mask penalty is 15 yards and the ball ended up inside the 15, The penalty yards are double whatever the hardline is, so the penalty was 7 1/2 yards (we never award 1/2 yards). So really what we do in this situation is we count the penalty as 7 yards (the ball is not on the seven until it actually touches the 7). We give the back credit for the yards down to the 15 (where the penalty was marked off from). So he gets 17 yards on the carry. On the stat sheet we would say that the ball for the next play is spotted at the 8. All yards accounted for: the ball advanced 24 yards between snaps, 7 on penalty and 17 on run.

One even worse one to figure out. Ball on offenses' own 12 yard line. There is a live ball hold on the offense which is accepted. There is then a unsportsman like conduct penalty against the offense, and then there is another one on the defense (In that order). The ball ends up on the 16 hardline. How is this handled in the stats?

You have to work backwards. The ball ended up on the 16, so that means the penalty was marked of 15 yards against the defense from the 1. For the ball to have been on the 1, the offense's unsportsman like conduct foul must have been half the distance from the two, and the hold must have been half the distance from the 4. Meaning the hold happened 8 yards in the backfield. So how do we account for this 4 yard difference is spots in the book. Back is credited with an 8 yard loss. Offense is credited with 2 penalties for 3 yards. Defense is credited with one penalty for 15 yards. -8 + -2 + -1 +15 = 4. Since the ball is 4 yards further down field than on the previous snap, we've got every yard accounted for.

As long as you get the yard line written down, ball carrier, and penalties, you can always go back and figure out yardages later.

A few years ago some referees thought Darren was lying when he pointed out Bird's opponents only had two offensive holds against them in the entire regular season, but Darren writes down what every accepted penalty and what it is for; he's far too obsessive compulsive about the stats to lie.

I will say this, one bit of yardage many stat keepers do not put in the book (and I'm with them on this) is when a team takes a knee and runs out the clock at the end of a half or the game. The idea is not to punish a QB's rushing stats just because they're being good sports. Many don't include it as a carry, some do. I used to choose to ignore taking a knee as if a play hadn't even happened (unless there was a penalty).

Also, I've seen backs credited with three yards for running in an two point conversion on a try. I know that's not supposed to be done. Reason being is that it's an all or nothing proposition. Gaining 17 yards means nothing if you had to go 18 after a penalty for the conversion.

I've never known what to do with penalties on extra points, however. I always counted those in the stats.

 

[DEVILSLB99]

The other time this gets nasty is if there is a half the distance to the goal penalty. Say, the ball is spotted on the 32. A play is run and a face mask penalty is called on the defense and the ball ends up on the 7 1/2 yard line. How does the statistician award yards? Answer: Since a face mask penalty is 15 yards and the ball ended up inside the 15, The penalty yards are double whatever the hardline is, so the penalty was 7 1/2 yards (we never award 1/2 yards). So really what we do in this situation is we count the penalty as 7 yards (the ball is not on the seven until it actually touches the 7). We give the back credit for the yards down to the 15 (where the penalty was marked off from). So he gets 17 yards on the carry. On the stat sheet we would say that the ball for the next play is spotted at the 8. All yards accounted for: the ball advanced 24 yards between snaps, 7 on penalty and 17 on run.

One even worse one to figure out. Ball on offenses' own 12 yard line. There is a live ball hold on the offense which is accepted. There is then a unsportsman like conduct penalty against the offense, and then there is another one on the defense (In that order). The ball ends up on the 16 hardline. How is this handled in the stats?

You have to work backwards. The ball ended up on the 16, so that means the penalty was marked of 15 yards against the defense from the 1. For the ball to have been on the 1, the offense's unsportsman like conduct foul must have been half the distance from the two, and the hold must have been half the distance from the 4. Meaning the hold happened 8 yards in the backfield. So how do we account for this 4 yard difference is spots in the book. Back is credited with an 8 yard loss. Offense is credited with 2 penalties for 3 yards. Defense is credited with one penalty for 15 yards. -8 + -2 + -1 +15 = 4. Since the ball is 4 yards further down field than on the previous snap, we've got every yard accounted for.

As long as you get the yard line written down, ball carrier, and penalties, you can always go back and figure out yardages later.

A few years ago some referees thought Darren was lying when he pointed out Bird's opponents only had two offensive holds against them in the entire regular season, but Darren writes down what every accepted penalty and what it is for; he's far too obsessive compulsive about the stats to lie.

I will say this, one bit of yardage many stat keepers do not put in the book (and I'm with them on this) is when a team takes a knee and runs out the clock at the end of a half or the game. The idea is not to punish a QB's rushing stats just because they're being good sports. Many don't include it as a carry, some do. I used to choose to ignore taking a knee as if a play hadn't even happened (unless there was a penalty).

Also, I've seen backs credited with three yards for running in an two point conversion on a try. I know that's not supposed to be done. Reason being is that it's an all or nothing proposition. Gaining 17 yards means nothing if you had to go 18 after a penalty for the conversion.

I've never known what to do with penalties on extra points, however. I always counted those in the stats.

As a statistician for many year and having worked over 1000 games I can tackle these points real quick. Officially the yardage is counted for taking a knee on the collegiate level and how we count it as a team rushing attempt. So usually each knee will result in a team rush for -2 yards.

When the ball is being placed in the 1/2 scenario you spot the ball at the next line. So if you are coming out and it is on the 7 1/2 you give them the 8 but going in at the 7 1/2 you give them the 7. That is the standard for all colleges and NFL statistics.

As far as XP goes those yards should not count as there is no reward for making the conversion or no penalty for missing them.

As far as penalties on you are correct to count them.