another perspective about playoffs, the West should have gone with 12 teams...

[uvacavs1]

wow, went away for the weekend to watch some college football and the 1A high school football and volleyball playoff seeding scenes go crazy It appears ha. Let us focus on football.

It seems quite obvious to me that the western teams will now have a ready excuse for the inevitable result (byes or not) that will soon play out during the semis this season (Essex and probably Riverheads advancing to Salem).

1) I certainly agree that both sides of any playoff bracket should be the exact same.

2) In this case, the two different regions were able to vote on their set up. The East chose 12. The West chose 16. Both sides should have talked and both set the teams at 12 each.

a) The regular season had become meaningless with 16 teams from each region making the playoffs (that's 32 out of like 42 or so teams. Giving byes (which I do not like at all btw as have posted) gives a reward, something to play for during the regular season.

b) Almost everyone (98%) of people on Preps over the years have complained that too many teams make the playoffs or some really good teams don't. 12 or 8 teams solves both problems.

3) The top teams of the East did not ask for byes. In fact, I would think that Essex, for example, prefers to play that game to remain focused and sharp. The bottom teams that know they will travel, be destroyed, lose money, and risk injury, did not want to play at all.

Heck, two years ago during round 1, Essex was up 14 before the offense had even touched the field (scored on the kickoff and kickoff return.) They rest many of their starters during this game anyway and the clock runs usually from the 2nd quarter on but again is good for top teams.

Crazy about how it played out with the Riverheads and Essex top seeding. Now both top seeds will have to travel during the semis as Essex even though #1 will have to travel as it did last season (I would certainly guess), assuming it plays out as expected.

So you could argue, it kinda worked out for the West this way....People are welcome to disagree indeed.

 

[NNDman]

Let me speak on this: All I will say is that the powers that be in the East did a miserable job of informing the media (which informs the public) regarding the change to 12 teams. While I cannot recall all of the lopsided results in 1-16, 2-15, 3-14 and 4-12 games the past 3 years I do not Altavista whipped Northumberland 62-18 two years ago and West Point 63-0 last year. Heck a few West Point players never even bothered to show up for the bus! Essex beat Cumberland 56-0 two years ago and 56-6 last year and I remember a running clock beginning at the start of the 2nd quarter in one if not both of those games. W&L beat Chuck City 69-34 last year with CC scoring a bunch of late touchdowns and W&L beat Middlesex 49-0 two years ago.

 

[uvacavs1]

There is no doubt that the powers that be have done a horrible job informing the media, coaches (of all sports, in all seasons) and the fans of all these changes that have been made since realignments, conferences, seeding changes, have taken place.

Even those involved in athletics have often been left to just guess or react to change, instead of being properly informed. Sometimes changes are made in the middle of seasons it seems and folks have to seek vital info after the fact.

Not sure who votes on all these things (probably various administrators, some have a keen sports knowledge and understanding, many, however, certainly do not...). Unfortunately, this can often put politics and self interests ahead of proper thinking skills and good sportsmanship.

Any athletic changes should be immediately reported and explained in writing to ALL schools impacted by these decisions, ADs, coaches, media outlets, and to the fans. Post on various affiliated web sites etc. If the local regions can not do it, then the VHSL should take over (and I'm a state's rights guy ha).

 

[THEGOATFROMJMU]

1A should be 12 on a side

all other divisions should have 16 on a side

 

[bravesfan7327]

1A should be 12 on a side

all other divisions should have 16 on a side

Why do you say this

 

[Hampton Roads 6]

Every division should have 16 teams. Regular season is not meaningless. VHSL uses regular season to determine seeding for playoffs. And let's not forget playoffs are where state champions are crowned.

I think the east went with 12 teams, hoping to gain an advantage over the west.

 

[Hampton Roads 6]

As foe blow outs, I can recall some blowouts in state championship games. These were 2 best teams in state playing, not a 1 vs 16 first round game. A good team is going to win big usually. All games cannot be 21-20.

 

[THEGOATFROMJMU]

It's a physical mis-match at the 1A level for really bad teams vs. really good teams....
This ONLY applies to 1A

Maybe that changes as the 1A gets more schools with higher enrollments but for right now and the near immediate future 12 is the right number

 

[Hampton Roads 6]

I recall a 2A championship game score of 52-0.

The biggest problem with 12 team format is 4 teams get a bye. Get to rest, scout, heal injuries while 8 other teams have to play. Use a level playing field.

 

[Trevor_Cash]

Win more and you get that bye. It's simple. Why reward teams who don't do as good?

12 is perfect for 1A

 

[Hampton Roads 6]

No one should get a bye, whether they are 10-0 or 1-9. I do not like the term, win more. I do believe every team tried to win each game they played. In every game one team will win. One team will lose. Once playoffs start, playing field should be level. With top 8 teams in 16 team format getting a home game and playing a lower seeded opponent, that's reward enough. A 12 team format gives 4 teams an unfair advantage.

 

[Chilwar25]

Hey, Uvacavs, you are blaming the wrong neighbors for throwing rocks at your cats. You say the West should kick their teams out the door like the East did. That is what some wrong politicians do when trying to explain a wrong position or vote on a issue that matters to some that have been disenfranchised. This being the case in the East by screwing 4 East teams outof their dreams to be even begining the fight for a VHSL title. Two wrongs to not make a right! The East blew it, and should man up and say so, and shut up about the west doing to right thing. You know, the West decision does make the East look very BAD!

 

[Trevor_Cash]

But those four teams EARNED that advantage. You may not like the term win more but it's true. You want a better seed/bye week? Win more.

 

[obguthr]

I'm with HR6 on byes and having the same rules for East and West. However, the numbers dictate how many teams qualify for the playoffs. With 48 total teams, 16 (8 West +8 East) is the perfect number, so this SHOULD be easy. If there were 72 teams in 1A, 16 would leave some very good teams out. 32, which is nearly half, would be too many. 24 would be ideal, but that would make byes necessary. Sometimes, there have to be byes.

Back to the present. Currently, 28 out of 48 teams make the playoffs. That's ridiculous. An average team shouldn't be in the playoffs, but with this many teams, BELOW average teams qualify. While it's cool for fans like me that the season is extended extra week(s), some of the first round matchups aren't worth watching.

 

[Chilwar25]

HeyTrevor, when you used the term " advantage " in your post, that just said how wrong the whole thing is !

 

[Hampton Roads 6]

In baseball Wm Campbell went 6-12 in regular season. That borders on being a bad team. They won the state championship.

There isn't a team in VHSL that earned a bye in football. Not a single ----one. Giving anyone a bye is BS. So what if a team won a game or 2 more than someone else, that does not warrant a bye. That is a chicken......t way of doing things. The east should have 16 teams, same as west. VHSL should not allow regions to do stupid stuff. 12 teams is stupid.

 

[dringtuoti]

I think a bye is ok, I also think having a difference of opinion is ok. I, however, believe saying things are stupid is what my 1st grader says. NFL gives a bye, MLB gives a bye, NCAA gives byes. Win more, schedule better etc. you lose more than half your games then you don't have much to complain about. I do wish it was uniform across the state but that's a region problem.

 

[obguthr]

In baseball Wm Campbell went 6-12 in regular season. That borders on being a bad team. They won the state championship.

There isn't a team in VHSL that earned a bye in football. Not a single ----one. Giving anyone a bye is BS. So what if a team won a game or 2 more than someone else, that does not warrant a bye. That is a chicken......t way of doing things. The east should have 16 teams, same as west. VHSL should not allow regions to do stupid stuff. 12 teams is stupid.

That Campbell team will be cited for decades as a reason for more inclusion, but that was a very special situation and one not likely to reoccur anytime soon. Those Campbell players should be very proud of that historic achievement, but it shouldn't be made a cause celebre for dumbing down the playoff system for all sports.

I do agree that no one earned a bye. Let's not forget that the seeding was based on an imperfect ratings points system. Creative scheduling is as much a factor of getting a good rating as the players playing on the field. So by awarding a bye, we're rewarding slick ADs and coaches for having the foresight to say, schedule a doormat 5A team like Deep Run.

 

[Hampton Roads 6]

Byes are not needed, go with 16 teams like format was first designed in 2011. It worked good then, it will work good now.

 

[The Gridiron Guru]

the issue is finding a team that is willing to play you. I can say with certainty that the following schools have dropped Essex from their schedules in the recent past: Frankllin, Sussex Central, Nandua, Arcadia, Mathews, Gretna. Deep Run agreed to play and that's that. What I cannot confirm is a rumor that Altavista turned down a chance to scrimmage Essex.
And didn't that William Campbell baseball team lose most of its game against higher classification teams?

 

[uvacavs1]

Hey, Uvacavs, you are blaming the wrong neighbors for throwing rocks at your cats. You say the West should kick their teams out the door like the East did. That is what some wrong politicians do when trying to explain a wrong position or vote on a issue that matters to some that have been disenfranchised. This being the case in the East by screwing 4 East teams outof their dreams to be even begining the fight for a VHSL title. Two wrongs to not make a right! The East blew it, and should man up and say so, and shut up about the west doing to right thing. You know, the West decision does make the East look very BAD!

I have said a few times that I completely agree that it should be the same on both sides of the bracket. Either 16, 12, or 8 teams. I was not trying to put this on the West just offering another perspective to consider that could have equalized the situation (this 12 team decision has already been discussed.).

As for those that made the decision in the East, I have no fondness for them (as I do not agree with the Volleyball or some other sports decisions either). This 12 team playoff ruling did not come from the old Northern Neck. However, I am starting to see a pattern though of what schools may benefit....

As for taking away some East team's dreams to play, wow, how many times must it be posted that some of those weaker schools are the ones who pushed for it...not the TOP teams. I have said several times now, I do not like byes. Heck, the 1st round are nothing but glorified practices to keep the team sharp and focused on the prize.

As I stated above, the end result will be the same either way with 16, 12 or 8.

Essex has won the last three State semi games by a combined score of 113 to 35.

(After playing in the 16 team format, total 32 teams). Obviously, they do not need a bye or want it.

 

[Chilwar25]

Thanks Uvacavs, I think you certainly have some valid points. The problem with the West teams in far SWVA is scheduling D1teams. With so many consolidations taking place down here, there are fewer D1schools. That means you either have to travel , or play up, if you can get a D2 school to play. Only about 2 D3 schools south of Pulaski.
I see the West facing a large problem in the near future, and even maybe reducing the number of playoff schools. But as for now, 16 works just fine!

 

[Hampton Roads 6]

No matter your record, if you make playoffs you have opportunity to get to Salem . Every team is now 0-0. Win and advance. Lose and go home. At end of playoffs only one team per division will be holding the trophy.

 

[uvacavs1]

Thanks Uvacavs, I think you certainly have some valid points. The problem with the West teams in far SWVA is scheduling D1teams. With so many consolidations taking place down here, there are fewer D1schools. That means you either have to travel , or play up, if you can get a D2 school to play. Only about 2 D3 schools south of Pulaski.
I see the West facing a large problem in the near future, and even maybe reducing the number of playoff schools. But as for now, 16 works just fine!

I have heard about some of the consolidations. Man, I enjoyed pulling for Haysi the last two years. I am sorry that they are no longer a 1A school. Great storyHaysi was with their coach, awesome fans & players and all. I think they consolidated with Clintwood? Another storied West team. Not sure your area, but has that worked well so far if known?

What happened to Fort Chiswell out there? They went from like 20-5 or so the last two years to like 0-10 I think (unless they won one or two). Is that big kid still playing for Tennessee?

I think that the West has more football teams than the East at the moment, but if West soon needs more teams I would guess that schools like Altavista and Riverheads (old Region C teams) could return to the West to add some more power teams.

HR6, yep, everyone is now 0-0. Anything can happen, especially at Salem. HR6, what do you think about AltaVista at Rappahannock?

 

[Chilwar25]

Yep, we lost 6 D1schools from the coal fields recently. We are on I-81, about 1 1/2 hrs away from the coal fields, but still it hurts losing those schools to D2. I will have to say that those are good folks in the coal region. The coal industry has really been taking a beating with coal dropping on Wall St in value, and many workers being laid off in the coal counties.People are moving out in some counties, and I see the population dropping in several counties, and of course the tax revenue has taken a hit, which effects the schools.
Honaker still is very good, along with JI Burton just about every year. Fort Chiswell is down, having fallen victim to several coaching changes and the talent is just not what is was . The big guy Coleman,is still at Tennessee and starts # 55 I think. Galax and George Wythe are tough, with a lot of very skilled athletes. There are several meduim talented schools that compete well with each other. Hopefully, SWVA will fair well in the playoffs! Best of luck!

 

[GilliamRatings]

But those four teams EARNED that advantage. You may not like the term win more but it's true. You want a better seed/bye week? Win more.

They didn't necessarily earn it. The VHSL power points which pretty arbitrary awarded it.

 

[THEGOATFROMJMU]

And why are byes bad things when you earn them?

It gives more clout to the regular season which I'm totally for since districts and district championships mean nothing anymore.

 

[mmqp]

It's a physical mis-match at the 1A level for really bad teams vs. really good teams....
This ONLY applies to 1A

Maybe that changes as the 1A gets more schools with higher enrollments but for right now and the near immediate future 12 is the right number

The bolded part is why the 1A cut off needs to be 400. Period. All 1A is at this point is a "2A lite" for schools that have between 400-475 students. Seriously, what teams can actually compete for a title that have below 400 students? Galax?? Name anyone else.

Move the cutoff to 400 and have a 16 team playoff for 1A...2A would be loaded and 1A would be exactly what it is supposed to be, a division for the smallest schools.

 

[THEGOATFROMJMU]

problem is 400 kids vs. schools 750-800 (difference 350-400)

vs.

475 vs 250-300 (difference 225-175)

Not really fair to the 400-475 ones in my option they are much closer to 300 than 800

 

[honestjohn60]

problem is 400 kids vs. schools 750-800 (difference 350-400)

vs.

475 vs 250-300 (difference 225-175)

Not really fair to the 400-475 ones in my option they are much closer to 300 than 800

It is a lot more fair than these schools with around 200-250 having to compete with school close to 500.

 

[mmqp]

problem is 400 kids vs. schools 750-800 (difference 350-400)

vs.

475 vs 250-300 (difference 225-175)

Not really fair to the 400-475 ones in my option they are much closer to 300 than 800

In my PERFECT system, there are minimum situations where schools will be over twice the size of other schools in their divisions:

1A: 0-400 (maybe 3-4 schools that are over half as small as other schools in the division)
2A: 401-750 (ZERO schools that are over half the size as other schools in the division)
3A: 751-1450 (Same as 2A)
4A: 1451 & Above (Maybe 3-4 schools that sit above the 2900 student mark)

Now..I'm not claiming to be Leonardo Da Vinci...but the above masterpiece puts me pretty darn close

 

[THEGOATFROMJMU]

751 to play with 1450 *shakes head*

you're argument that 300 can't compete with 475 (difference of 175)
but 400 can compete with 750 (difference of 350)
and 751 can compete with 1450 (difference of 700)

you can't cater to the schools with 100-200 kids...

 

[mmqp]

751 to play with 1450 *shakes head*

you're argument that 300 can't compete with 475 (difference of 175)
but 400 can compete with 750 (difference of 350)
and 751 can compete with 1450 (difference of 700)

you can't cater to the schools with 100-200 kids...

Oh? So its okay to expect a school with 150 students to be competitive with schools with 475. But how dare us expect that in any other division.

 

[Keith_Stone33]

In my PERFECT system, there are minimum situations where schools will be over twice the size of other schools in their divisions:

1A: 0-400 (maybe 3-4 schools that are over half as small as other schools in the division)
2A: 401-750 (ZERO schools that are over half the size as other schools in the division)
3A: 751-1450 (Same as 2A)
4A: 1451 & Above (Maybe 3-4 schools that sit above the 2900 student mark)

Now..I'm not claiming to be Leonardo Da Vinci...but the above masterpiece puts me pretty darn close

I don't mind the 6 classification system so much with football although 4-5 is probably the better number. I feel like sports not named football should go back to the 3 class system.

 

[THEGOATFROMJMU]

Oh? So its okay to expect a school with 150 students to be competitive with schools with 475. But how dare us expect that in any other division.

I do considering there is only 5 schools with less than 150
only 10 schools with less than 200.

out of 315 schools....
again you can't cater to the small tiny schools.... a majority rightfully so are consolidating to save money

 

[honestjohn60]

I do considering there is only 5 schools with less than 150
only 10 schools with less than 200.

out of 315 schools....
again you can't cater to the small tiny schools.... a majority rightfully so are consolidating to save money

How many are under 300?

 

[THEGOATFROMJMU]

If I was guessing I'd say 22-25

Pretty sure highland with 60 kids doesn't even field a football team not sure on the other really small ones...

 

[mmqp]

How many are under 300?

According to the enrollment #'s I got off of the VHSL website, there are 20 schools with an enrollment of 300 or below that play football, 22 schools if you count Highland and Council who dont play...Council used to play didnt they Honestjohn?

 

[mmqp]

I do considering there is only 5 schools with less than 150
only 10 schools with less than 200.

out of 315 schools....
again you can't cater to the small tiny schools.... a majority rightfully so are consolidating to save money

I'm not catering to any schools. I just want the system set up to where there is never a situation where schools are stuck playing schools over two times their size in an attempt for a title. Sometimes even 3 times their size. That has happened in the not-so-distant past in Single A football. And its silly. Can you imagine that happening in any other division? I can't.

And here, I'm even open to something like this: Break 3A and 4A in half and have 3A, 3AA, 4A and 4AA. How those numbers would be decided I dont really care.

 

[THEGOATFROMJMU]

Percentages are pretty irrelevant-- it's # of kids of kids issue

you are saying there is a bigger discrepancy between having 150-200 more kids than the other divisions having 300-700 difference...

That's catering to the small schools plain and simple
You are saying its a travesty and unfair that a school has 150-200 more kids in one situation
but it's perfectly ok to have 400 to 700 kids in another situation.

ummmmm ok