At VHSL, more changes seem inevitable
- Thread starter EPJr
- Start date
Change is always inevitable. Of course, when you lose money after major reclassification, there's huge motivation. So, we're going back to a hybrid of the old Regions. Like lots of folks said on this board, when reclassification was originally proposed, attendance will go down when rivalries are forgone and travel dramatically increases. The bottom line says that's exactly what happened.
At least the VHSL is reacting quickly to make adjustments and the six levels will remain. Enrollments are still being evaluated expediently. They have gotten some things right. That are not remaining static in their thinking. The Playoffs have been exciting in that we have gotten to see teams we don't normally encounter. All good stuff. They'll implement changes and I hope they continue to do so every year until VA has one of the best athletic organizations in the Country. As fans, we have to go over some frustrating bumps but at least we're still moving.
At least the VHSL is reacting quickly to make adjustments and the six levels will remain. Enrollments are still being evaluated expediently. They have gotten some things right. That are not remaining static in their thinking. The Playoffs have been exciting in that we have gotten to see teams we don't normally encounter. All good stuff. They'll implement changes and I hope they continue to do so every year until VA has one of the best athletic organizations in the Country. As fans, we have to go over some frustrating bumps but at least we're still moving.
VHSL needs to eliminate the higher seed host crap, and play playoff games halfway between the 2 schools involved, thus eliminating 3-4 hour drives to playoff games. A school from Tidewater Region should NEVER have to travel to SWVA, nor should a school from SWVA have to travel to Eastern part of state. Play the game halfway.
Makes a lot more sense. Too many people within Virginia think that just because a team has .0000001 more power points than another, they have earned something over the other team. .00000001 power point isn't worth a 4 hour drive for any team.
HR6 I have heard you argue this point about playoff games a few times. I think in some ways I may even see your point but doesn't a better record/ points( which I hate) imply you should have some advantage. Otherwise cut the playoff teams down to 8 in each division and play all seven games at a predetermined site over 3weekends to crown the champion. You could even move the site every year with the "host" site getting some of the gate for putting on the show. Personally I don't like neutral field because of the atmosphere the home field sometimes can generate. But I do see your point about travel.
The debacle at the state wrestling tournament is very indicative of the main reason the VHSL lost money last year. There was obviously no backup plan and the people making the decisions including those running the venues don't have common business sense. Many of the rules upon rules they create are ambiguous and non enforceable. The rule book grows every year. Just a couple of suggestions...
Structure the classifications to create/maintain rivalries which produce big gate for the schools and bigger gate for the playoffs. Student tickets should be $3. Where the kids go the parents follow and buy the $10 tickets. That is Marketing 101. Get lots of bodies and excitement with the student sections in the stadium and you will make more money. People are like moths..they fly to the fire. ...HAVE GOOD SOLID BACKUP PLANS and announce good backup plans ahead of time instead of flying by the seat of your pants when things happen. Have fewer rules BUT ACTUALLY ENFORCE the ones you have. Leveling the playing field helps the whole body become healthier
Structure the classifications to create/maintain rivalries which produce big gate for the schools and bigger gate for the playoffs. Student tickets should be $3. Where the kids go the parents follow and buy the $10 tickets. That is Marketing 101. Get lots of bodies and excitement with the student sections in the stadium and you will make more money. People are like moths..they fly to the fire. ...HAVE GOOD SOLID BACKUP PLANS and announce good backup plans ahead of time instead of flying by the seat of your pants when things happen. Have fewer rules BUT ACTUALLY ENFORCE the ones you have. Leveling the playing field helps the whole body become healthier
This cracks me up. Eliminating the conferences should INCREASE travel distances. The only way to decrease travel distances is to go to few classes.
If you are speaking of football, the VHSL has nothing to do with any decision to cross bracket.
Except for the finals, all games should be played at a host school determined by a fair point system. To play at a neutral site may be "fairer" but you will not get the travel/attendance by the fair weather fans or students who only go to home games. Have you seen the visitors side of the field lately? You would get that times two in the first and second rounds. VHSL needs to sell tickets. Also in my experience getting everyone and the equipment on the bus is most of the work and it doesn't really make that much of difference if you are on the bus 1 hour or 4 hours. Over 4 it does makes a difference but that would be an exception rather than the rule.
I don't understand why they can't be honest about what they're trying to fix. They'll describe problems with current system. Then the fix they propose will make those problems worse. What are the ultimate goals? That should be determined first. Then it's easier to make an alignment plan and playoff system that will take care of that. I think half the problem is no one has ever prioritized exactly what the goals are.
Here are some flaws I see:
1) There are too many classes. Six classes is too many. The public simply won't follow six sets of playoffs. Knock this down to 4, no divisions. The biggest reason for travel difficulties in the playoffs is that with six classes the state becomes pretty sparsely populated with schools of any particular class (drawback--schools now addicted to easier state titles, regional titles, etc.). Absolutely no divisions, however, divisions were the worst decision the state ever made and led to pretty much all of the problems we've had over the years.
2) Don't have districts with mixed classes. This confuses the hell out of everyone. If you're all equal enough to be in a district together, you ought to be equal enough to go compete for the same state title. Districts need to mean something.
3) Don't let everybody in the playoffs. The regular season does nothing but seed teams for the playoffs (and not even that in some sports) for everything but football, and football lets in every team that has 11 guys with two working legs. This really almost turns the regular season into a series of scrimmages. First round playoff games feature some of the worst blow outs of the year as it stands.
4) Simplify the playoff structure. Nobody gets it as it is now. I follow this more than most people, but I don't know which classes cross bracket and when and who has sub regionals and who doesn't. This is just football. In the other sports, you can lose and keep playing (if you lose in the right round), and figuring out who faces who from year to year is just crazy. The NCAA basketball tournament is so successful because it's a simple to understand single elimination tournament with no cross bracketing or reseeding or teams getting a second chance after they lose.
5) Definitely have a regional structure. I love having regional champions. I love having four areas of the state represented. I think it makes the first couple of rounds of the playoffs more special.
6) You can fix all regular season scheduling difficulties by going to a sound seeding principle like the one I laid out on my website. You actually look at each team's schedule and each team's win total and then find a probability that a slightly above average team would win that many games against that schedule. Then the teams who pulled off seasons that were most unlikely would get the higher seeds. The thing this does for us is that there is no fooling around with schedules because there's no way to really game this system. If you schedule a pansy that gets factored into your probability. If you schedule a monster, so does that. It's based on how good the teams are, not the enrollment of your opponent and how many wimpy schools are on their schedule.
Here are some flaws I see:
1) There are too many classes. Six classes is too many. The public simply won't follow six sets of playoffs. Knock this down to 4, no divisions. The biggest reason for travel difficulties in the playoffs is that with six classes the state becomes pretty sparsely populated with schools of any particular class (drawback--schools now addicted to easier state titles, regional titles, etc.). Absolutely no divisions, however, divisions were the worst decision the state ever made and led to pretty much all of the problems we've had over the years.
2) Don't have districts with mixed classes. This confuses the hell out of everyone. If you're all equal enough to be in a district together, you ought to be equal enough to go compete for the same state title. Districts need to mean something.
3) Don't let everybody in the playoffs. The regular season does nothing but seed teams for the playoffs (and not even that in some sports) for everything but football, and football lets in every team that has 11 guys with two working legs. This really almost turns the regular season into a series of scrimmages. First round playoff games feature some of the worst blow outs of the year as it stands.
4) Simplify the playoff structure. Nobody gets it as it is now. I follow this more than most people, but I don't know which classes cross bracket and when and who has sub regionals and who doesn't. This is just football. In the other sports, you can lose and keep playing (if you lose in the right round), and figuring out who faces who from year to year is just crazy. The NCAA basketball tournament is so successful because it's a simple to understand single elimination tournament with no cross bracketing or reseeding or teams getting a second chance after they lose.
5) Definitely have a regional structure. I love having regional champions. I love having four areas of the state represented. I think it makes the first couple of rounds of the playoffs more special.
6) You can fix all regular season scheduling difficulties by going to a sound seeding principle like the one I laid out on my website. You actually look at each team's schedule and each team's win total and then find a probability that a slightly above average team would win that many games against that schedule. Then the teams who pulled off seasons that were most unlikely would get the higher seeds. The thing this does for us is that there is no fooling around with schedules because there's no way to really game this system. If you schedule a pansy that gets factored into your probability. If you schedule a monster, so does that. It's based on how good the teams are, not the enrollment of your opponent and how many wimpy schools are on their schedule.
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I agree with everything you said here except for the mixed districts. They don't bother me if it's say 6 & 5 mixed together or say 5 & 4, etc... What is a problem is the 3A schools playing in a district made up of mostly 5A and 6A schools.
You and I both know the VHSL will never decrease the classes... Yourself, Tom and I, even Rod I think at one time were championing that cause and it makes more sense to have four classes but that won't happen. The VHSL likes having six state champions too much to do that...
The playoff structure needs to be simplified like you said and it needs to be the same throughout each class, not where each class or region makes it's own rules. I understand why they did it with this latest round of alignment but if we are going to go to a regional look like has been described, then have it consistent throughout as far as the number of teams that get in and how each round is played out. As far as the teams that make it go, too many teams are getting in. I'm happy for schools and programs that aren't usually in the playoffs but do 2-8, 3-7 teams really deserve to be in the playoffs? I mean in 3A I can think of a few teams that probably are already a safe bet and we are only entering week 5.
If the districts are mixed, what is the point of a district? There is none. If they're going to be mixed, then simply eliminate them.
Well I say if you're not going to have winning a district meaning anything, what's the point of having them. That's the biggest problem I have with districts now.
I agree with most everything all of you are saying on here especially this one. Districts is where most of the rivalries should/would be. Winning districts doesn't mean anything anymore and winning region disappeared altogether so no rivalries can be created there either. Teams face up in the playoffs by seeding against teams that change every year. It's come down to winning all or nothing against 1/2 the state and even then there is nothing to play for except advancing. This the major problems in the structure of vhsl playoffs...when you take away the importance of winning at a district/region level you take away one of the best things about hs football and you kill your customer base in the process.
Districts are there for scheduling purposes. High school athletic directors don't have the time to complete their own 10 game football season, 22 game girls and boys basketball season, volleyball, golf,.......
VHSL created part of their problems when they allowed one Region to do it "their own way", when they went to new format. EVERYONE SHOULD PLAY WITH SAME FORMAT. This includes 6A and 5A schools.
I agree. Mixed districts are not a real problem, except in football. And maybe a little in basketball.
But like "dringtuoti" said, they are an important asset in scheduling the various other sports besides football. I would hate to see the burden it would place on the AD's to have to deal with their entire athletic calendar from basically scratch every year.
Isn't the answer readily apparent? The VHSL membership could vote to remove the points premium for playing district opponents in football. That would allow teams the opportunity to let their schedule evolve. A rivalry by it's very nature, involves two schools. They could stay in place regardless of group size, because both teams want it to. Otherwise, the games that are mis-matches, or have no real history or rivalry, could be converted to match-ups that are more meaningful. And potentially more profitable.
This way, the districts stay intact. And, on the surface anyway, it solves several problems in football.
And I do also agree with the contention that the method of sending teams to the final state match-ups, (remember, pending almost assured approval, this will now include quarter finals, as well as semi and finals), SHOULD BE THE SAME. That is a really bad allowance by the VHSL. I understand that they grant a significant amount of latitude and autonomy to the regions and conferences. But, I'm at a loss to give an example of any organization that allows for a single champion in an event via two different sets of criteria.
DP
I agree it should be universal but the way it was told to me was that there would have been zero change if the VHSL mandated every level and every region had to do things the same. This was the concession. I'm sure they will work to fix the problems - conferences will soon be out the window and regions will be back in place in a few years.
I think if they let each individual group class, west plus east combined, agree to a playoff plan or format, that would work for them, it would be the answer to both concerns. The VHSL doesn't dictate, and it assures equality. I'm sure the needs and desires of say 2a, differ for what's best for 6a. As long as you arrive at the championship game from the same method for both contenders of a group, all is good and above question. For instance, the 4a west contender this year will most likely play only 13 games to get there. The east contender will have played 14 games. Is this an advantage, or a disadvantage? You can make an argument both ways. But the bottom line, this question should not have to be asked.
Incidentally, I think the 4a west made a really bad decision in adopting this 12 team format. They have opened themselves up to criticism regardless if they win the state championship or not. They win, an everybody says they had one less game of wear and tear, and injuries. (Of corse this is assuming what is almost assured, that one of the top four teams makes the state championship game). If they lose, the critisim is that they changed the format to try to seek an advantage and still lost. A no win conundrum.
I agree 100% you will have even less fans if there is a neural site. I think it would be hard to schedule neutral sites in advance. Besides no matter what the power points are if you have more you should get home field
VHSL can't make the schools do anything.
BTW 5A South is already doing what is gonna be proposed
and 3A East will also be going that route this post season.
Eliminating home field advantage in football playoffs has to be one of the most hilariously awful suggestions I've ever read. That's all-time bad on levels that shouldn't be spoken about above a whisper.
