Cumberland Refusing to play Goochland and Buckingham
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Actually, from my understanding it does. Someone, elaborate for me, but conference play is not necessarily a factor because not many teams play conference schedules for football. From my understanding, after talking to several individuals with more VHSL knowledge than myself, in this case a refusal to play part of your district schedule for schools that are within 1 division of your classification would disqualify you for postseason play. I think Cumberland understood it that way too, but someone please correct me if I am mistaken. They are making a move like they did back in the 90's to rebuild their program and try and get interest back. The move worked for them then and in the 2000's they had a run of a few good seasons. According to VHSL reference, they played just 5 games in 1999 with 2 forfeits as well (I am assuming two back to back 2-0 scores are shutouts) went 0-10 in 2000, but then slowly turned it around, going 7-3 in 02 (only losses to State Champs William Campbell, State Runner Up Buckingham, and Regional Finalist Central Lunenburg) and winning the district in 08. Altavista did the same thing in 03, and their success lately has been unprecedented so a rebuild job to not play a full district schedule and instead build your kids confidence and teach them the game may be a great idea. Hate losing the Old Battle of Route 60 though.
Agree with you knightsfan64 when it comes to the history of playing teams. Lot of history between Cumberland and all of the JRD.
Fluvanna dropped both Goochland and Buckingham (two huge gates) to pick up William Fleming (lost a ton at the gate) and Spotsy (did get a win this year but the gate was low). I understand Fluvanna wanting to pick up teams at the 3A and 4A level, but I wonder how much they actually lost at the gate and concession the past two years from not playing two of their biggest rivals in history.
A few schools have done this over the years. Look at Colonial Beach. They were not in VHSL for a few years and played private schools, schools of their caliber, got some wins, plus confidence and it helped to build their program.
This move will hopefully help Cumberland in the future. They had under 30 player for their whole program (V and JV) this year and had to drop their JV program. They did start a MS/Freshman team to help build for the future. This move may hurt them at the gate, Goochland and Buckingham both have great fans that will travel to see their team on the road. Will the teams they picked up do the same?
This post was edited on 1/6 1:47 PM by piz hokies
Fluvanna dropped both Goochland and Buckingham (two huge gates) to pick up William Fleming (lost a ton at the gate) and Spotsy (did get a win this year but the gate was low). I understand Fluvanna wanting to pick up teams at the 3A and 4A level, but I wonder how much they actually lost at the gate and concession the past two years from not playing two of their biggest rivals in history.
A few schools have done this over the years. Look at Colonial Beach. They were not in VHSL for a few years and played private schools, schools of their caliber, got some wins, plus confidence and it helped to build their program.
This move will hopefully help Cumberland in the future. They had under 30 player for their whole program (V and JV) this year and had to drop their JV program. They did start a MS/Freshman team to help build for the future. This move may hurt them at the gate, Goochland and Buckingham both have great fans that will travel to see their team on the road. Will the teams they picked up do the same?
This post was edited on 1/6 1:47 PM by piz hokies
I don't recall ever reading in the VHSL Handbook that this situation results in exclusion of playoff participation. The points system was modified to add points for district participation, but I don't think any punishment ensues if you choose to not play district schedules.
But, I'm not positive. I'll do a little research, and also ask a friend that should know.
Interesting concept to limit games to get better. Not sure I can agree with that.
But, I'm not positive. I'll do a little research, and also ask a friend that should know.
Interesting concept to limit games to get better. Not sure I can agree with that.
I was under the impression that it doesn't matter as long as you play VHSL competition. I don't blame Cumberland for dropping those two schools though. Pick up a Rapp Co. (they already hammer the poor Panthers anyway) or a Nelson County, get some confidence and rebuild the program.
Just stay away from the private schools, please.
Just stay away from the private schools, please.
This IS Cumberland's only good option. The football program is in shambles right now. Since the District championship season I believe they have only won 9 games for an overall record of 9-41 in the regular season. Not to mention the drubbings they have taken from state power Essex the last 2 seasons in the playoffs. I hardly think it would be a big deal for them to be excluded from the play offs. Cumberland should do this. There comes a time where you have to rebuild and taking a beating week in and week out to big time programs isnt the way to do it
Weird how everyone is applauding Cumberland for making this decision, but when Altavista did this 12 years ago they were crucified on this board. Funny stuff. Good for Cumberland though, you gotta do what's best for the kids.
Conferences mean nothing in football.
Dropping most district teams in 2003 by AltaVista had nothing to do with Colonel's success in past 3 or 4 years. AltaVista brought in a good Coach on board and they had a great crop of athletes come through. Current AltaVista players were probably in 2nd or 3rd grade when Colonels dropped some schools.
Now with elimination of districts of old, schools are better off if they play independent schedule. Play who you want to, and hope you pile up enough points to make playoffs. Many times schools hurt themselves by "playing down" in regards to points from VHSL.
Dropping most district teams in 2003 by AltaVista had nothing to do with Colonel's success in past 3 or 4 years. AltaVista brought in a good Coach on board and they had a great crop of athletes come through. Current AltaVista players were probably in 2nd or 3rd grade when Colonels dropped some schools.
Now with elimination of districts of old, schools are better off if they play independent schedule. Play who you want to, and hope you pile up enough points to make playoffs. Many times schools hurt themselves by "playing down" in regards to points from VHSL.
And those 2nd and 3rd graders were playing football down at the park for the Lynch Station Lizards, which did not exist until around the time Altavista dropped out of the Dogwood. Yes, the Colonels have a great coach now....but the success of Altavista football NOW started back in 2002 & 2003 when Evelyn Vaden brought back pee wee football to Altavista
I'm sure they knew this when they made the decision. I don't think the playoffs were of a major concern for Cumberland the next few years
PLAYOFFS? PLAYOFFS? DID YOU SAY PLAYOFFS? PLAYOFFS?
I think some programs are just trying to survive or keep from becoming extinct. When you get beat to where it becomes humiliating by some schools, kids do not want any more part of it and will stop coming out for football. I think what Cumberland is doing is the right thing. If they can play a softer schedule and get a few wins, then maybe more interest will arise from the kids there. If more kids come out and they are being developed then, "in time" they can think about the playoffs. One needs to think about the big picture and that is crawl then walk and then run.
It amazes me how much stock is put into the playoffs when some are just looking to survive. I would rather go 7-3 or 6-4 and not qualify for the playoffs but finish a season with a feeling of accomplishment. That is a winning season rather than go 3-7 and make the playoffs but know that you really were not that good. I think what Altavista did a few years back was absolutely the right thing to do for your program. You made several changes as you pointed out and now you are one of the best programs in Virginia. I remember some were not happy with that but you need to take care of yourself because no one else will. My hat goes off to those at Altavista that made it successful.
On the other hand, it appears that districts do matter because if you do not play the district schedule then you will not be eligible for the playoffs. There is much talk about districts not meaning anything to some folks other than the "playoff" qualification. That being said, I wonder if it could ever be possible to work out a system where struggling programs could play each other. If teams such as Cumberland, Nelson, Page and Stonewall could play each other it may improve the morale at those schools knowing that they have a chance to win some games. Just a thought.
I think some programs are just trying to survive or keep from becoming extinct. When you get beat to where it becomes humiliating by some schools, kids do not want any more part of it and will stop coming out for football. I think what Cumberland is doing is the right thing. If they can play a softer schedule and get a few wins, then maybe more interest will arise from the kids there. If more kids come out and they are being developed then, "in time" they can think about the playoffs. One needs to think about the big picture and that is crawl then walk and then run.
It amazes me how much stock is put into the playoffs when some are just looking to survive. I would rather go 7-3 or 6-4 and not qualify for the playoffs but finish a season with a feeling of accomplishment. That is a winning season rather than go 3-7 and make the playoffs but know that you really were not that good. I think what Altavista did a few years back was absolutely the right thing to do for your program. You made several changes as you pointed out and now you are one of the best programs in Virginia. I remember some were not happy with that but you need to take care of yourself because no one else will. My hat goes off to those at Altavista that made it successful.
On the other hand, it appears that districts do matter because if you do not play the district schedule then you will not be eligible for the playoffs. There is much talk about districts not meaning anything to some folks other than the "playoff" qualification. That being said, I wonder if it could ever be possible to work out a system where struggling programs could play each other. If teams such as Cumberland, Nelson, Page and Stonewall could play each other it may improve the morale at those schools knowing that they have a chance to win some games. Just a thought.
It is not that I don't understand or have sympathy for their situation. Many teams have gone through it over the years. But where do you draw the line. Should every team that has a season or two of getting crushed go with a non-district schedule? Did Gretna go to it when they went through a losing streak in the 90's? Some teams have just scheduled their out of district opponents with teams that they will be able to compete with. Again, I understand, but how many teams in the state have similar problems and should they do the same thing?
I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Gretna didn't have a problem fielding an entire team during their 44 game losing streak. The whole point of this is they are not getting enough bodies to field a team
You make a good point with scheduling. I understand that just because a team has a couple of losing seasons it should not be allowed to play a non-district schedule. However, some of these schools have been losing for "many" years and they are struggling to just survive. When a team has less than 20 kids on August 1st that is not a good situation at all. I believe in some cases it is important to build confidence and the only way that some schools can do this is by playing a non-district schedule against opponents that they have a chance to compete with on the field. Getting beat up by 50+ points every week does nothing for some schools except prevent the better athletes from even going out for football.
I don't think this is a case of Cumberland bailing on the district. From what I gather this was a difficult decision. Last year their JV folded and this year they only had a varsity team. According to vhsl-reference Cumberland has been outscored by around 200 points the last 6 seasons. That includes blowout wins over Rappahannock. Take those scores out and its way worse. The right coach with the right energy can turn any program around. Tough times in Cumberland.
ColonelCrazie11 is absolutely correct. Donnie and Evelyn Vaden starting the youth program back in Altavista was a key move in turning the program around. It certainly doesn't hurt that the AHS class of 2015 is loaded with as many exceptional athletes as I've seen in any one class at a 1A school....probably ever. But a ton of credit to the staff at AHS for making the tough decision to step back, to the Vadens, and certainly to Coach Scharnus and his staff.....
When Coach Bell left that's when the football program took the big hit. He's by far the most successful coach in school history, albeit he's only coached one team to a playoff berth (in the old 4 team style Region B format) he had quite a few of good teams where luck just didnt fall their way. 7-3 in 2002, losing to William Campbell, Central Luneburg & Buckingham where I believe all three schools made the playoffs. Buckingham & WC made states I believe. 6-4 in 2007. He left the team in 08, with plenty of talent. Honestly speaking, if he coached the next couple of years I'm almost positive they go to three straight playoffs. Things just fell apart once he left and I don't think they've had more than 3 wins in a season since.
I'm not as close to the program as I was back in the day, due to my job and my younger family members have all graduated but as I've been told they're not as bad as those scores indicate. I'm beyond shocked at the decision not to play Buckingham for the time being, Goochland I could care less about. They finally got a middle school team, so my assumption is they want to start a true rebuild and go from there.
I'm not as close to the program as I was back in the day, due to my job and my younger family members have all graduated but as I've been told they're not as bad as those scores indicate. I'm beyond shocked at the decision not to play Buckingham for the time being, Goochland I could care less about. They finally got a middle school team, so my assumption is they want to start a true rebuild and go from there.
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