How rare is this call?

[infamous540]

At the Rockbridge-Staunton River game last night there was a call that I can't remember ever seeing before. It was off setting penalties, off sides on the D and false start on the offense. Two separate refs threw a flag so I assume one saw the false start and the other the off sides. The refs got together with the white hat so I'm guessing they came to the conclusion that the two fouls happened simulations. Just wondering how often this happens since I can't recall ever seeing it.

 

[White hat]

I've seen this call a couple of times over the years. I don't know anything about the specifics of the game you mention, but when I've seen it called the two players are on opposite ends of the line from each other.

The logic is: if two guys are close, then one fouled and the other reacted and we should figure out who did what. But if they are on opposite ends (as you lead me to believe by saying two different officials had flags) then both fouled and neither was a reaction. The officials could sort out who fouled a split second sooner, but that would almost be costing one team and giving the other a break because of a fraction of a second in timing -- and they might not even know who acted a tiny bit sooner. The fairest way to call that would be to offset.

Yes. it is quite rare.

 

[infamous540]

Thanks for the response, I figured it had to be rather rare. Some people sitting around me didn't understand they were upset thinking the D had to have drawn the offense to a false start. But I noticed two diffrent refs had thrown flags so it made since to me, but still something I had never seen. I will add I never miss a chance to be critical of the refs, so I want to take this opportunity to praise the refs at that game they seemed to work great together and you didn't even notice they were there which is a sign of great officiating.

 

[spartan2005]

couldn't it happen if defender lines up offsides and then have false start on offensive player before snap with defender still lined up in neutral zone?

 

[White hat]

It's possible. That's entirely dependent on the officials at that particular game. In fact, I've never seen this scenario but it's interesting,.I'm going to get some opinions on how guys would call this.

Technically is a member of either team lines up in the neutral zone it's a foul right then -- dead ball -- but most guys will give them a second to realize where they are and back up, or maybe give a shout to back up. If there's a falst start while the player is still in the NZ, I could see it being offset, although my personal opinion is I would only enforce the encroachment because we know that happened first.

 

[Hampton Roads 6]

I hate defensive off sides flags. that is dumbest penalty in football. line up behind the ball, simple technique. No excuse for any defensive player to line up off side

 

[Hawks8614]

HR6, you do know that a defender that lines up on the correct side of the line of scrimmage and then goes beyond the line is still called off sides.

 

[Fadamor]

I'm a wing official on the line of scrimmage. I've seen wide-outs trot PAST me and set up a yard into the defense's side of the ball. Then they look at me and ask me if they're "OK". I've had players set up in no-man's land (not quite on the line and not quite in the backfield) and ask me if they're "good". I've had defenders walk across the line of scrimmage because the guy they normally cover is back in the slot rather than on the line where he usually is. In NONE of those cases has the player ever properly positioned themselves based on where the ball is. This is (in my opinion) caused by the coaches telling their players to check with the refs on their position rather than looking where the ball is at. In the first instance, I am standing at the ball, if you have to look over your shoulder to talk to me, you most definitely are NOT "OK". In the second instance, a.) I don't know where you are SUPPOSED to be on this play and b.) I am not the guy who keeps the Naughty or Nice list, so I have no idea whether you are "good" or not. In the third instance, stop trying to psyche out the guy you're covering and pay attention to where the ball is, for Pete's sake!

But all of that is peanuts compared to the player I call "the Leaner". He's the wide-out who gets set up on the line perfectly legally, checks with me as to whether he's on the line (usually even going so far as to tell me he's supposed to be on the line), then when assured he's legal, takes a step into the neutral zone and leans into the defense's side of the ball.

By the way, all of those except for the no-man's land guy are technically encroachment fouls. Once the ready for play whistle blows, nobody can be in the neutral zone except for the snapper. We'll try to talk them to where they need to be, but then we run the risk of having them moving when the ball is snapped and drawing a flag for THAT. My limit has been two: if I've talked to the player about his position twice, then the third time is a flag for encroachment. Substitutes entering the field have a special rule exemption from encroachment until they get on their side of the ball, but that's rarely an issue.

Oh and one last nit-picky thing. NFHS rules don't have an "offsides" foul. Offsides is the live-ball foul you can avoid if you get back on your side of the ball before the ball is snapped. The only thing in the NFHS rules is "encroachment", which is a dead ball foul. You have no ability to try and get back on your side of the ball.
This post was edited on 12/30 10:06 AM by Fadamor