Riverheads 29 Stuarts Draft 28 Final
- Thread starter gladiatorgrad10
- Start date
Well folks I will try to do this one justice but trust me it won't be easy. I have been attending Riverheads games for (never you mind how many) years and I would be hard pressed to remember one wilder than this one. In case you haven't already heard, the Gladiators scored with 8 seconds left in the game and decided to go for two. As you can tell from the score, they succeeded and will now travel to Strasburg next Friday for the regional semi-finals. The winner of that one will get to host the regional championship the following week because they are the two and three seeds whereas the other two semi-finalists are seeded fourth and eighth.
Needless to say I will have plenty of praise for the Gladiators for pulling out such a gutsy win, so I will definitely get around to that. But to be completely fair, Stuarts Draft deserves major praise as well. For the second time this season, they faced Riverheads and committed no turnovers and no penalties. Well they did have a holding call but Riverheads committed a face mask on the play so the penalties offset.
Also it bears mentioning that Landon Graber played an incredible game for the Cougars and how he failed to earn first-team all-district quarterback I have no idea. He was at the top of his game tonight and Riverheads, despite the win, had a hellacious time trying to stop him. Little Brother Baylor also played a nice game, but if I had to single out a difference between this game and SD's early runaway victory, it was that SD lacked the explosiveness of the first match-up. Now maybe RHS had something to do with that on defense, but it looked like the Cougars were happy tonight with the running game and I only remember one pass play of more than 20 yards.
Earlier in the week, I had expressed the hope that the officials would not factor too much into this game and that it would be decided on the field. Well that did not exactly work out too well because there was plenty of howling from both fan bases, especially in the final few minutes. I will get to that later.
The game had plenty of plot twists and momentum swings and the lead changed hands about four times. Neither team ever led by more than a touchdown.
RHS took the opening kickoff and needed just over three minutes to score. Quarterback Levi Dunlap (who had the game of his career as well tonight) ran a routine QB sneak from around midfield and all of a sudden he broke out of the pack and lumbered toward the goal line. He was stopped at the two, but a pair of sneaks later the Gladiators were on the scoreboard. Zac Brooks added the PAT and to keep from mentioning those again, he and Graber were each perfect on the night.
Following that score, the Big Red stuffed the Draft on a three and out and thanks to a sky-high punt, found themselves back in business near midfield. They drove down to about the Cougar 30 and fans were starting to sense a quick 14-0 lead coming. But the Cougars forced a fumble on their own sideline for the only turnover of the game by either team.
The Cougars then drove effortlessly down the field for a tying touchdown. At that point, it appeared that Big Mo might be on the visitor's side of the field.
To their credit the Big Red did not let that TD faze them as they calmly drove 80 yards to retake the lead. Jackson Fitzgerald swept right end from 12 yards out to make it 14-7, midway through the second quarter. The Cougars answered that score also to tie things at 14-14 at the break.
To that point, the officiating had been decent but the half ended on a bit of controversy. The Gladiators were making a sincere effort to score once more and found themselves around the Cougar 45 with nine seconds left. They had one timeout and time for two plays.
Dunlap took off around right end and was knocked hard out of bounds around the 35. Gladiator fans howled for a late hit but it was on the Cougar sideline and therefore hard to judge from the home side. To make matters worse, the clock was showing all zeroes even though it seemed hard to believe the play had taken the whole nine seconds.
There was a conference along the Riverheads bench that was either about the lack of a flag or the time. Whatever the case, the Gladiator brain trust did not give up without a fight and as they finally headed for the locker room, it honestly looked like the stripes were staring them down waiting for them to say one more thing and get flagged themselves.
(I am going to hit the send button here, because I don't trust this computer after what happened a few weeks ago. )
To be continued.....
Needless to say I will have plenty of praise for the Gladiators for pulling out such a gutsy win, so I will definitely get around to that. But to be completely fair, Stuarts Draft deserves major praise as well. For the second time this season, they faced Riverheads and committed no turnovers and no penalties. Well they did have a holding call but Riverheads committed a face mask on the play so the penalties offset.
Also it bears mentioning that Landon Graber played an incredible game for the Cougars and how he failed to earn first-team all-district quarterback I have no idea. He was at the top of his game tonight and Riverheads, despite the win, had a hellacious time trying to stop him. Little Brother Baylor also played a nice game, but if I had to single out a difference between this game and SD's early runaway victory, it was that SD lacked the explosiveness of the first match-up. Now maybe RHS had something to do with that on defense, but it looked like the Cougars were happy tonight with the running game and I only remember one pass play of more than 20 yards.
Earlier in the week, I had expressed the hope that the officials would not factor too much into this game and that it would be decided on the field. Well that did not exactly work out too well because there was plenty of howling from both fan bases, especially in the final few minutes. I will get to that later.
The game had plenty of plot twists and momentum swings and the lead changed hands about four times. Neither team ever led by more than a touchdown.
RHS took the opening kickoff and needed just over three minutes to score. Quarterback Levi Dunlap (who had the game of his career as well tonight) ran a routine QB sneak from around midfield and all of a sudden he broke out of the pack and lumbered toward the goal line. He was stopped at the two, but a pair of sneaks later the Gladiators were on the scoreboard. Zac Brooks added the PAT and to keep from mentioning those again, he and Graber were each perfect on the night.
Following that score, the Big Red stuffed the Draft on a three and out and thanks to a sky-high punt, found themselves back in business near midfield. They drove down to about the Cougar 30 and fans were starting to sense a quick 14-0 lead coming. But the Cougars forced a fumble on their own sideline for the only turnover of the game by either team.
The Cougars then drove effortlessly down the field for a tying touchdown. At that point, it appeared that Big Mo might be on the visitor's side of the field.
To their credit the Big Red did not let that TD faze them as they calmly drove 80 yards to retake the lead. Jackson Fitzgerald swept right end from 12 yards out to make it 14-7, midway through the second quarter. The Cougars answered that score also to tie things at 14-14 at the break.
To that point, the officiating had been decent but the half ended on a bit of controversy. The Gladiators were making a sincere effort to score once more and found themselves around the Cougar 45 with nine seconds left. They had one timeout and time for two plays.
Dunlap took off around right end and was knocked hard out of bounds around the 35. Gladiator fans howled for a late hit but it was on the Cougar sideline and therefore hard to judge from the home side. To make matters worse, the clock was showing all zeroes even though it seemed hard to believe the play had taken the whole nine seconds.
There was a conference along the Riverheads bench that was either about the lack of a flag or the time. Whatever the case, the Gladiator brain trust did not give up without a fight and as they finally headed for the locker room, it honestly looked like the stripes were staring them down waiting for them to say one more thing and get flagged themselves.
(I am going to hit the send button here, because I don't trust this computer after what happened a few weeks ago. )
To be continued.....
The second half opened with a long, time-consuming drive by each team. The Cougars received the second half kickoff, and since they didn't seem interested tonight in going for the jugular, they ate about eight minutes off the clock before scoring. That gave them their first lead at 21-14 and once again it looked like they might be ready to seize control of the game.
But once again, the Gladiators didn't panic and drove down the field for the equalizer. We were into the fourth quarter before they scored and I think it was Brady Boehm this time. Along the path to that touchdown, Riverheads was hit with another penalty, this time for an illegal lineman downfield. Dunlap had just hit Boehm for about a 30 yard catch into Cougar territory but it was disallowed. That led to another Gladiator protest and this time I think the conference was about which down it was going to be as much as the penalty.
I believe that third Gladiator TD was scored by Jonathan Talbott but don't quote me on that. He and the previously-mentioned Boehm and Fitzgerald were the main cogs in the Gladiator rushing game along with what seemed like a dozen sneaks by Dunlap.
That score came around the five minute mark to make it 21-21 and gave the Cougars plenty of time to re-take the lead. They did exactly that, converting several third and fourth downs along the way and I believe the clock read 2:21 when they scored.
Once again (third time now) it looked as if the game was going to go the way of the visiting Cougars, especially since Riverheads is not exactly known for its two-minute offense. But they kept their cool and drove 69 yards for the game winner.
Unfortunately the officials were not pleasing anybody for those last two minutes as each side had major issues to complain about. First of all, there were two occasions when the play was over and the ball had been set, only to have an official brazenly pick it up and move it back. The first time was maybe a one-yard difference but the second one was an eye-popping 2 to 2 1/2 yard setback and the Gladiator faithful let them have it.
However the Cougar fans had a complaint of their own to air when there were two separate occasions in which the clock read one number, only to have them motion up to the press box to add more time. Considering how the game ended, SD fans would probably claim those adjustments gave Riverheads the time it needed to win the game.
Despite all the chaos, the Big Red kept driving and it momentarily appeared that they had scored on a third down play with around 20 seconds left. But they were ruled short, which led to a wild scramble to make sure everyone was set for a make or break fourth down play.
I have no idea who scored but it came with 8 seconds left from inside the one. Our exuberant PA announcer, who bless his soul does get caught up in the moment sometimes, was yelling into the mic "go for two!" and sure enough it soon became obvious that they were going to do exactly that.
Due to Riverheads style of play and the fact that Dunlap had been sneaking all game long, the Cougars were no doubt expecting a running play but on the best coaching move of the night, the Gladiators caught them off guard. Dunlap rolled to his right and had his choice of two receivers in the right corner of the end zone. I believe it was Trevor Lima, who had caught a touchdown pass in the game at Stuarts Draft, who hauled it in for the game winner.
The game then ended with the Cougars doing the only thing they could do......running the lateral drill and hoping for a miracle. But the last guy was nailed around midfield and the celebration began.
So hats off to both teams........to the Cougars for showing once again what a well-oiled machine they are.........but more importantly to the Big Red for fighting back from the humbling loss at the Draft and for not panicking tonight on the three occasions where it looked like SD was in a position to take charge of the game.
If you do the math, this was a 29-point turnaround from the first game, since the Draft won that one 42-14. But from what we have heard, the region's eighth-seed, Madison County, did even better, as they lost to number one Clarke County by 14 at home just last Friday, but traveled to Clarke tonight and shut out the Eagles 21-0 in front of what I am sure must have been some pretty shocked home fans.
Moral of both stories........don't ever give up when you are playing a team for the second time and keep fighting till the final whistle, which ironically was exactly the message tonight on the RHS cheerleaders' banner before the team ripped through it.
Congrats to the Big Red and let's see what you can do next week up at Strasburg, where the Rams destroyed Fort Defiance tonight 44-6.
But once again, the Gladiators didn't panic and drove down the field for the equalizer. We were into the fourth quarter before they scored and I think it was Brady Boehm this time. Along the path to that touchdown, Riverheads was hit with another penalty, this time for an illegal lineman downfield. Dunlap had just hit Boehm for about a 30 yard catch into Cougar territory but it was disallowed. That led to another Gladiator protest and this time I think the conference was about which down it was going to be as much as the penalty.
I believe that third Gladiator TD was scored by Jonathan Talbott but don't quote me on that. He and the previously-mentioned Boehm and Fitzgerald were the main cogs in the Gladiator rushing game along with what seemed like a dozen sneaks by Dunlap.
That score came around the five minute mark to make it 21-21 and gave the Cougars plenty of time to re-take the lead. They did exactly that, converting several third and fourth downs along the way and I believe the clock read 2:21 when they scored.
Once again (third time now) it looked as if the game was going to go the way of the visiting Cougars, especially since Riverheads is not exactly known for its two-minute offense. But they kept their cool and drove 69 yards for the game winner.
Unfortunately the officials were not pleasing anybody for those last two minutes as each side had major issues to complain about. First of all, there were two occasions when the play was over and the ball had been set, only to have an official brazenly pick it up and move it back. The first time was maybe a one-yard difference but the second one was an eye-popping 2 to 2 1/2 yard setback and the Gladiator faithful let them have it.
However the Cougar fans had a complaint of their own to air when there were two separate occasions in which the clock read one number, only to have them motion up to the press box to add more time. Considering how the game ended, SD fans would probably claim those adjustments gave Riverheads the time it needed to win the game.
Despite all the chaos, the Big Red kept driving and it momentarily appeared that they had scored on a third down play with around 20 seconds left. But they were ruled short, which led to a wild scramble to make sure everyone was set for a make or break fourth down play.
I have no idea who scored but it came with 8 seconds left from inside the one. Our exuberant PA announcer, who bless his soul does get caught up in the moment sometimes, was yelling into the mic "go for two!" and sure enough it soon became obvious that they were going to do exactly that.
Due to Riverheads style of play and the fact that Dunlap had been sneaking all game long, the Cougars were no doubt expecting a running play but on the best coaching move of the night, the Gladiators caught them off guard. Dunlap rolled to his right and had his choice of two receivers in the right corner of the end zone. I believe it was Trevor Lima, who had caught a touchdown pass in the game at Stuarts Draft, who hauled it in for the game winner.
The game then ended with the Cougars doing the only thing they could do......running the lateral drill and hoping for a miracle. But the last guy was nailed around midfield and the celebration began.
So hats off to both teams........to the Cougars for showing once again what a well-oiled machine they are.........but more importantly to the Big Red for fighting back from the humbling loss at the Draft and for not panicking tonight on the three occasions where it looked like SD was in a position to take charge of the game.
If you do the math, this was a 29-point turnaround from the first game, since the Draft won that one 42-14. But from what we have heard, the region's eighth-seed, Madison County, did even better, as they lost to number one Clarke County by 14 at home just last Friday, but traveled to Clarke tonight and shut out the Eagles 21-0 in front of what I am sure must have been some pretty shocked home fans.
Moral of both stories........don't ever give up when you are playing a team for the second time and keep fighting till the final whistle, which ironically was exactly the message tonight on the RHS cheerleaders' banner before the team ripped through it.
Congrats to the Big Red and let's see what you can do next week up at Strasburg, where the Rams destroyed Fort Defiance tonight 44-6.
Lots to unpack but that was a very good Draft team that the Gladiators beat tonight. My hats off to both teams for a relatively clean game. One that you mentioned was the end of half play but without watching the game again on NFHS, live it appeared the QB was sliding and had given himself up only to being hit by the defender as well as going out of bounds, so that’s another aspect of that play that pissed off a large portion of the Riverheads faithful. IMO that would have been a late hit and even if the clock had hit zeros (and I didn’t think it had), it would have been an untimed down at around the 20 which likely would have been a 37ish field goal attempt with Brookes being pretty solid in the kicking game.
Lots of heart tonight by the entire team but the line play tonight was very very good. This group has taken some completely undeserved heat this season and despite that have kept plugging away and doing their job. As a fan I am proud of their effort, improvement and ability to block out the “noise” from those that have been detractors. This group is made up of sophomores with one junior so while this seasons ending is yet to be determined, look out for the next two years as they grow even more.
The last thing I want to touch on concerns the coaching. Lots of people have talked about the adjustments this group makes and they are very good at that. The thing that has impressed me this season is the ability to tune out those that have a specific agenda and focus on the players and the process. Hats off to those men and their commitment to the kids. It’s a thankless job when you win and a minefield if you lose. The kids do the work and execute so they should get the credit but the he right group of coaches are pretty damn important too. Hats off gentlemen, we thank you.
Lots of heart tonight by the entire team but the line play tonight was very very good. This group has taken some completely undeserved heat this season and despite that have kept plugging away and doing their job. As a fan I am proud of their effort, improvement and ability to block out the “noise” from those that have been detractors. This group is made up of sophomores with one junior so while this seasons ending is yet to be determined, look out for the next two years as they grow even more.
The last thing I want to touch on concerns the coaching. Lots of people have talked about the adjustments this group makes and they are very good at that. The thing that has impressed me this season is the ability to tune out those that have a specific agenda and focus on the players and the process. Hats off to those men and their commitment to the kids. It’s a thankless job when you win and a minefield if you lose. The kids do the work and execute so they should get the credit but the he right group of coaches are pretty damn important too. Hats off gentlemen, we thank you.
I have now watched the NFHS broadcast of this game, and I have some more compliments to pass out, followed by one huge criticism.
First of all, hats off to NFHS itself. When it first came out a few years ago, it drove me nuts with all the freezing and poor reception. But from the little bit of football and volleyball I have watched this fall, they seem to have ironed the bugs out of it to make it a nice alternative to watch a game.
This game was very well presented and having announcers made it even better. Seeing a game with just fan reaction or maybe complete silence is better than not seeing it all but in this case, Leland and Jeff helped make this game a real media event.
I also have to reiterate my praise for both teams and the incredible game that each one played. Each team scored on just about every possession and they did it with far fewer turnovers (one total) and very few penalties (3 or 4 tops) than you would ever expect to see in any game.
They should also be congratulated for keeping their cool at the very end of the game, which ended with the wild scramble in front of the Riverheads bench. We have all seen enough games to know that kind of ending could have led to some pushing and shoving or worse, but these two teams had enough respect for each other to not sink to that level.
But speaking of sinking to a low level, and you probably know where I am going with this.........I have to ask. What in the H*** was that referee thinking when he deliberately picked up that ball and moved it back two yards? For those of you who have not yet seen this, take five minutes of your time to play the game tape to see what I am talking about. You don't have to watch the whole game, just fast forward to Riverheads' final drive with about a minute or so left in the game.
The Big Red had just run a play down to the SD 25 yard line. The ball was clearly marked ready for play at that spot and the teams had gone to their respective huddles ready for the next play. Riverheads was actually breaking its huddle and heading to the line ready to go, when an official stepped in, picked the ball up, and moved it back to the 27. It had absolutely nothing to do with the previous play or the spot. He just did it for whatever reason he had on his mind at the time.
I give credit to the announcers for expressing their amazement at it and for not mincing words with their commentary, because it was just ridiculous and defied any common sense or logic. Sure officiating is a tough job and referees miss calls all the time in all sports (holding and face masks in football, block/charge in basketball, safe/out in baseball) but those things are going to happen because of how fast the action can be. But surely anyone can see how this was a totally different situation and there was no pressure on anybody to make a call.
I don't know anything about the politics of the VHSL and whether officials are evaluated, if formal complaints are ever filed, or if there is any kind of accountability expected of them. But in this case, the very LEAST that should happen is for that guy to be shown how he looked on camera, so he can explain himself.
First of all, hats off to NFHS itself. When it first came out a few years ago, it drove me nuts with all the freezing and poor reception. But from the little bit of football and volleyball I have watched this fall, they seem to have ironed the bugs out of it to make it a nice alternative to watch a game.
This game was very well presented and having announcers made it even better. Seeing a game with just fan reaction or maybe complete silence is better than not seeing it all but in this case, Leland and Jeff helped make this game a real media event.
I also have to reiterate my praise for both teams and the incredible game that each one played. Each team scored on just about every possession and they did it with far fewer turnovers (one total) and very few penalties (3 or 4 tops) than you would ever expect to see in any game.
They should also be congratulated for keeping their cool at the very end of the game, which ended with the wild scramble in front of the Riverheads bench. We have all seen enough games to know that kind of ending could have led to some pushing and shoving or worse, but these two teams had enough respect for each other to not sink to that level.
But speaking of sinking to a low level, and you probably know where I am going with this.........I have to ask. What in the H*** was that referee thinking when he deliberately picked up that ball and moved it back two yards? For those of you who have not yet seen this, take five minutes of your time to play the game tape to see what I am talking about. You don't have to watch the whole game, just fast forward to Riverheads' final drive with about a minute or so left in the game.
The Big Red had just run a play down to the SD 25 yard line. The ball was clearly marked ready for play at that spot and the teams had gone to their respective huddles ready for the next play. Riverheads was actually breaking its huddle and heading to the line ready to go, when an official stepped in, picked the ball up, and moved it back to the 27. It had absolutely nothing to do with the previous play or the spot. He just did it for whatever reason he had on his mind at the time.
I give credit to the announcers for expressing their amazement at it and for not mincing words with their commentary, because it was just ridiculous and defied any common sense or logic. Sure officiating is a tough job and referees miss calls all the time in all sports (holding and face masks in football, block/charge in basketball, safe/out in baseball) but those things are going to happen because of how fast the action can be. But surely anyone can see how this was a totally different situation and there was no pressure on anybody to make a call.
I don't know anything about the politics of the VHSL and whether officials are evaluated, if formal complaints are ever filed, or if there is any kind of accountability expected of them. But in this case, the very LEAST that should happen is for that guy to be shown how he looked on camera, so he can explain himself.
Alright, well since the game was brought up again and to complain about something in Riverheads favor, I will now have to respond. Its absolutely AMAZING that after winning the game in the way it was won that "we" want to talk about a SPOT.
Before we get into the game (or more specifically the last drive), I would like to congratulate the Riverheads FOOTBALL TEAM and Coaches. They played like I knew they would and made great adjustments from the 1st game and played a great game. Nothing that follows has ANYTHING to do with them. And in all honesty, it has nothing to do with Riverheads fans (well you will understand). It was an incredible game that was an instant classic between 2 great programs and a shame anyone had to lose.
1st: I will address the spot play that was discussed and upset about. It was marked one spot by one side judge, another by the other with him saying his knee was down. It wasn't moved back for no reason. You can say it was the WRONG spot which is fine, but there was a reason.
2nd: I am sure there is some disagreeing on the last 2 plays and if Riverheads got in the endzone on 3rd and/or 4th down. That probably depends on the vantage point or more realistically what shade of Red you were either wearing or wanting to win. I can have my opinion, while others have the complete different and no argument here on that. As for 2 pt conversion, GREAT CALL, both going for 2 and the play call to convert the 2 pt conversion.
Now for the real reason for the post. And I also have a better understanding of it than most because of doing it myself. The clock issues were absolutely INSANE and a travesty to the game that was played on the field. And ALL of this can be verified on film, in person, and through NFHS. So RH last possession, heck we can give it the old NFL "The Drive". One play (2:07 on the clock at start), was a 14 yard gain. That took a grand total of 1 second off the clock. 4+ more times the clock didn't start for 2-3 seconds AFTER the ball was snapped. The 1st clock adjustment (from 1:55 to 1:58), I won't even argue it (not exactly correct, but overlooking that one for argument sake). The 2nd time out came the play after this spotting of the ball that is in question. And no, I don't mean directly after it, Riverheads ran a play, called timeout with 1:09 remaining. Once the timeout was concluded, the time on the clock was 1:17. For this one, its not like there was a delay in TO being called from sideline, where needed to adjust because of that. The timeout was called as soon as he was tackled. The play was the RH ballcarrier being tackled at line/or loss where the ball was SNAPPED at 1:14/1:15. So there is NO CONCEIVABLE way that running a play adds time. And since a play was ran, an official can't then adjust anything.
So without even factoring in the multiple times the clock didn't start on time, but JUST the one play where it didn't run and the added time on the 2nd TO, that is 12 seconds. The 4th down touchdown was SNAPPED at 11 seconds. Again, factoring in the others, by my clock, that 12 turns into around 30.
Call it sour grapes, call it whining, call it whatever you want. I will reiterate that this has NOTHING to do with the FOOTBALL GAME played on the field, NOTHING AT ALL to do with The Riverheads FOOTBALL TEAM OR COACHES, and NOTHING to do with more than 2 people in that stadium as far as my knowledge goes.
And that is the shame of this, 2 people that have NO BUSINESS being part of the story are THE story and it ruined the game for 2 VERY DESERVING programs who in one way or the exact opposite are effected by it.
If you want to justify it because of a rooting interest for one side, then IF it ever happens to you then you have no ground to complain. Yes, IF it happens to you in the future, BOTH are wrong. But if you look at it without a biased view (there are those out there who have), and you can admit that it happened props to you. But to me, sports is the only place on earth that we overlook something when it is in our rooting interest because it makes us "feel" better and more accomplished. Id say we all probably do it at some point with something borderline, but for those who know me they will know that I will tell fans from my own side when they are complaining about something during a game and they are wrong. And guess what, it happens A LOT.
Before we get into the game (or more specifically the last drive), I would like to congratulate the Riverheads FOOTBALL TEAM and Coaches. They played like I knew they would and made great adjustments from the 1st game and played a great game. Nothing that follows has ANYTHING to do with them. And in all honesty, it has nothing to do with Riverheads fans (well you will understand). It was an incredible game that was an instant classic between 2 great programs and a shame anyone had to lose.
1st: I will address the spot play that was discussed and upset about. It was marked one spot by one side judge, another by the other with him saying his knee was down. It wasn't moved back for no reason. You can say it was the WRONG spot which is fine, but there was a reason.
2nd: I am sure there is some disagreeing on the last 2 plays and if Riverheads got in the endzone on 3rd and/or 4th down. That probably depends on the vantage point or more realistically what shade of Red you were either wearing or wanting to win. I can have my opinion, while others have the complete different and no argument here on that. As for 2 pt conversion, GREAT CALL, both going for 2 and the play call to convert the 2 pt conversion.
Now for the real reason for the post. And I also have a better understanding of it than most because of doing it myself. The clock issues were absolutely INSANE and a travesty to the game that was played on the field. And ALL of this can be verified on film, in person, and through NFHS. So RH last possession, heck we can give it the old NFL "The Drive". One play (2:07 on the clock at start), was a 14 yard gain. That took a grand total of 1 second off the clock. 4+ more times the clock didn't start for 2-3 seconds AFTER the ball was snapped. The 1st clock adjustment (from 1:55 to 1:58), I won't even argue it (not exactly correct, but overlooking that one for argument sake). The 2nd time out came the play after this spotting of the ball that is in question. And no, I don't mean directly after it, Riverheads ran a play, called timeout with 1:09 remaining. Once the timeout was concluded, the time on the clock was 1:17. For this one, its not like there was a delay in TO being called from sideline, where needed to adjust because of that. The timeout was called as soon as he was tackled. The play was the RH ballcarrier being tackled at line/or loss where the ball was SNAPPED at 1:14/1:15. So there is NO CONCEIVABLE way that running a play adds time. And since a play was ran, an official can't then adjust anything.
So without even factoring in the multiple times the clock didn't start on time, but JUST the one play where it didn't run and the added time on the 2nd TO, that is 12 seconds. The 4th down touchdown was SNAPPED at 11 seconds. Again, factoring in the others, by my clock, that 12 turns into around 30.
Call it sour grapes, call it whining, call it whatever you want. I will reiterate that this has NOTHING to do with the FOOTBALL GAME played on the field, NOTHING AT ALL to do with The Riverheads FOOTBALL TEAM OR COACHES, and NOTHING to do with more than 2 people in that stadium as far as my knowledge goes.
And that is the shame of this, 2 people that have NO BUSINESS being part of the story are THE story and it ruined the game for 2 VERY DESERVING programs who in one way or the exact opposite are effected by it.
If you want to justify it because of a rooting interest for one side, then IF it ever happens to you then you have no ground to complain. Yes, IF it happens to you in the future, BOTH are wrong. But if you look at it without a biased view (there are those out there who have), and you can admit that it happened props to you. But to me, sports is the only place on earth that we overlook something when it is in our rooting interest because it makes us "feel" better and more accomplished. Id say we all probably do it at some point with something borderline, but for those who know me they will know that I will tell fans from my own side when they are complaining about something during a game and they are wrong. And guess what, it happens A LOT.
So to follow up with Gunz who has been around and knows what he is talking about for the most part, lol. I have two questions for you. First who has the primary call on spotting the ball if it’s nearest one hash or the other? Second when is the ball supposed to be put back in play after a first down?
And for the record the white hat is the head of officials for his area and very knowledgeable. I would say if he rewatched this game he would see several opportunities.
And for the record the white hat is the head of officials for his area and very knowledgeable. I would say if he rewatched this game he would see several opportunities.
Both CAN say where the spot is (especially if one has a better angle), but my comment on that isn't even that the spot was correct when they moved it back. My entire point on that is for those who are saying they did it without any reason either don't know or don't want to know. Its very easy to see it on NFHS as well that they had different spots and the SJ on SD side saying he was down.
For your other question, I am not understanding what you are asking. If we are talking about the same play, it wasn't a 1st down. But if we are talking in more general terms, the White Hat starts the clock, so whether he starts it fast or slow or exactly how you would expect, that is WHEN YOU START THE CLOCK. And the thing is, he also didn't change the amount of time he used to wind the clock for that time in game as compared to earlier. P.S. these also weren't just after a 1st down.
Again, there is a multitude of proof of what I am saying. And again, it has ZERO to do with the players on the field or their coaches. It was an incredible game feom that stand point
Wasn’t making an argument because objectively I can see where you would see it the way you do from your perspective. I have major issues with both of those scenarios in general not specific to any play in this game.
First off the closer guy is generally deferred to unless there is something egregious. That said I did see the Draft side judge indicating that the runners knee was down. If that was the case they should have called an officials timeout as the offense was reporting to the ball with a play that had already been called, potentially based on that initial spot. That is my opinion on that specific play and although annoying it wasn’t a huge deal.
As for winding the clock, I agree it’s when the white hat winds it but the mechanics should be that the dang ball is at least spotted prior to that occuring when there is a first down. This isn’t about the last two minutes either, it’s just a pet peeve of mine and this guy was quick with it all night (against both teams)
And not to put too fine a point on it by the white hat added time specifically because the ball being moved late was delaying our opportunity to snap the ball or so I was told. And not to rehash open sores but it’s rich that there is a social media uproar over the clock when several years ago it was of benefit to Draft at their field in an extremely tight game.
Either way the game is done and that was a very good senior laden Draft team that I could have seen make noise against any of the Bull Run teams. IF L Graber would have been healthy it may have been different. He is the epitome of what you want from a HS football player and I have a ton of respect for him laying it all out there battling his shoulder.
First off the closer guy is generally deferred to unless there is something egregious. That said I did see the Draft side judge indicating that the runners knee was down. If that was the case they should have called an officials timeout as the offense was reporting to the ball with a play that had already been called, potentially based on that initial spot. That is my opinion on that specific play and although annoying it wasn’t a huge deal.
As for winding the clock, I agree it’s when the white hat winds it but the mechanics should be that the dang ball is at least spotted prior to that occuring when there is a first down. This isn’t about the last two minutes either, it’s just a pet peeve of mine and this guy was quick with it all night (against both teams)
And not to put too fine a point on it by the white hat added time specifically because the ball being moved late was delaying our opportunity to snap the ball or so I was told. And not to rehash open sores but it’s rich that there is a social media uproar over the clock when several years ago it was of benefit to Draft at their field in an extremely tight game.
Either way the game is done and that was a very good senior laden Draft team that I could have seen make noise against any of the Bull Run teams. IF L Graber would have been healthy it may have been different. He is the epitome of what you want from a HS football player and I have a ton of respect for him laying it all out there battling his shoulder.
I had no idea I was opening up such a can of worms. I was simply trying to make the point that it looked odd and totally illogical for that referee to come in at the last possible moment to move the ball. The fact that the crowd reacted to the degree they did and the radio announcers pounced on it the way they did would certainly seem to indicate that I am not the only one who thought it was strange.
Now if this official sincerely thought the ball had been spotted incorrectly on the previous play, and an official timeout had been called to discuss the issue, and THEN the ball moved back, Riverheads fans would have still been unhappy about it, but at least they would have seen the discussion and would have at least had an idea as to why it was done. It would have helped the situation if he had waved his arms as he was approaching the ball to call attention to the fact that something was not quite right. But the way he handled it just gave it the impression of being an arbitrary, impulsive move on his part with no reasoning behind it.
As for the clock issues, the explanation by Gunz (above) just left my head spinning to the point that I did not even try to follow him. But as we know (and I have complimented him in the past on this) he is one of those folks who can decipher the point system and stay ahead of everybody else, even the media, on that. Therefore math and statistics are obviously his strong suit.
So if he has studied Friday night's clock situation so thoroughly that he knows exactly how many seconds were mismanaged, I guess we will just have to leave it at that. I would only ask him to remember that I did point it out in my original review of the game as a legitimate complaint that SD fans likely had about the outcome. I did not simply gloss over it.
If I owe anyone an apology in this situation, it would be Landon Graber. In my game review, I made a couple of references to Stuarts Draft sticking to a ground-oriented game as opposed to the more wide-open attack that they used to beat Riverheads the first time around. As I recall at least three of their six touchdowns that night were plays of 50 yards or more.
So when I expressed my opinion about Friday's approach appearing to be a more conservative one, I had completely forgotten that he had been injured in the Wilson game and perhaps was not 100%. As I hope I made clear, he is an amazing player who has had an outstanding career, and if he was not completely himself Friday night, he still played a superb game.
Now if this official sincerely thought the ball had been spotted incorrectly on the previous play, and an official timeout had been called to discuss the issue, and THEN the ball moved back, Riverheads fans would have still been unhappy about it, but at least they would have seen the discussion and would have at least had an idea as to why it was done. It would have helped the situation if he had waved his arms as he was approaching the ball to call attention to the fact that something was not quite right. But the way he handled it just gave it the impression of being an arbitrary, impulsive move on his part with no reasoning behind it.
As for the clock issues, the explanation by Gunz (above) just left my head spinning to the point that I did not even try to follow him. But as we know (and I have complimented him in the past on this) he is one of those folks who can decipher the point system and stay ahead of everybody else, even the media, on that. Therefore math and statistics are obviously his strong suit.
So if he has studied Friday night's clock situation so thoroughly that he knows exactly how many seconds were mismanaged, I guess we will just have to leave it at that. I would only ask him to remember that I did point it out in my original review of the game as a legitimate complaint that SD fans likely had about the outcome. I did not simply gloss over it.
If I owe anyone an apology in this situation, it would be Landon Graber. In my game review, I made a couple of references to Stuarts Draft sticking to a ground-oriented game as opposed to the more wide-open attack that they used to beat Riverheads the first time around. As I recall at least three of their six touchdowns that night were plays of 50 yards or more.
So when I expressed my opinion about Friday's approach appearing to be a more conservative one, I had completely forgotten that he had been injured in the Wilson game and perhaps was not 100%. As I hope I made clear, he is an amazing player who has had an outstanding career, and if he was not completely himself Friday night, he still played a superb game.
Ok pal, I will let you point out at what point in "some game" recently that there was an error at SD, my guess is that you are now trying to justify something to cover up for Friday.
You see, like anything, I am not going to say 100% that an ERROR, wasn't made at ANY time at SD. THAT COULD happen anywhere any time. But 6 times on ONE DRIVE, yea VERY unlikely.
Again, I am not just saying this, I have ACTUAL PROOF of this. You know, this thing we call EVIDENCE, not just some words written out.
It seems that one side wants to continue to discuss a spot and how it was handled, which in reality cost the Gladiators a couple seconds when it was moved. Great. I will 100 % agree. So now we are at 28 seconds.
Now if you REALLY want me to, I will go back and watch the ENTIRE game and see if there is a noticeable delay on the clock running in any part of the game, since you want to make a deal out of when he was doing it.
And even so, that absolutely doesn't explain a play where it doesn't run, or the plays when the ball was snapped ON A DEAD BALL.
Speaking of that, IF the clock runs when it was supposed to at other times in the game (since you admitted the WH didn't change a thing all game), will you then like to admit that what was done last drive looks EXTREMELY BAD AND I will leave it there...
The audacity to try and turn this around is unbelievable. Oh, btw there are those who have seen this evidence NOT from SD and agree, just saying...
I just watched and the one play that was 13 yards but only 1 second ran off the clock is the one that sticks out the most. Just timed it and it was 6 seconds. You can see on the tape them moving the ball back but I think the whistle should have blown and an explanation given as it did look bad to the common fan. The two side judges had 2 different spots and they were about 2 yards off. You hate for refs to make mistakes but it is just part of the game unfortunately. We have been on both sides of the coin as has Stuarts Draft at some point in time.
You obviously weren't trying to end anything with talking about clock at SD (I notice you didn't reply when and who), and continue to ignore the facts.
And I will repeat AGAIN, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the team or coaches. They played a great game and had them prepared very well. If there hadn't been these issues, it would have been that much more incredible, but...
You go ahead and overlook all the negative here just so you can think everything was peachy keen, or in fact make it seem like Riverheads was the one who was on the receiving end of it.
Butt hurt, na. Just know right from wrong. Now if you can find ANYWHERE throughout my entire history on here of saying anything close to this when SD lost, I will bow out. But you wont, because it doesn't exist. But you go ahead and chalk it up to me being that mad that SD lost a game if that makes you feel any better.
I can 100% guarantee you are on the wrong end of this debate. But you go ahead and continue this thought you aren't and apparently you think you know more than me. Have at it, just remember these 8 letters...
E
V
I
D
E
N
C
E
The mention of it happening between these teams before was for reference. For the record it was the 2017 game and I havent watched it since then but will go back if you are that interested in the EVIDENCE. One specific play I remember was a long pass late in the game by Draft where there were only a few seconds run off the clock on a scramble, then a pass for significant yardage. Literally impossible relative to the time ran off the clock. It didn't end up affecting the outcome, but it certainly could have in that 17-14 game. Thats why I say again that it doesn't matter even though it happens at times.
The main thing is that clock issues happen every week, that's a fact. By being micro focused on this, it looks petty. Unlike the first game, Draft didn't stop Riverheads offense but one time with the fumble recovery (twice if you count the 1-minute drive before halftime), and Riverheads didn't stop Draft but one time on downs, that is also a statement of fact. Objective people pretty much knew the last team with the ball would have a good shot to win it.
As has happened over the years you and I are never going to agree. I do not have rose colored glasses and think every think is rosy, but I am also not arrogant enough to think I know more than the 7 game officials. I didn't agree with a pile of stuff that night, but I also wasn't on the field and communicating with the other 6 guys officiating the game.
In the end the game is over and nothing we talk about will affect that.
PS
And if this wasn't about Draft losing, why do I not see you losing your mind about other teams that might have had the same thing happen? I get it, its personal but if you really are going to say that this is not pretty much standard week to week and something every team has to deal with, then who has the altered sense of reality here? For the record the clock operator needs to be a neutral VHSL official IMO. That would solve some issues anyway..........
The main thing is that clock issues happen every week, that's a fact. By being micro focused on this, it looks petty. Unlike the first game, Draft didn't stop Riverheads offense but one time with the fumble recovery (twice if you count the 1-minute drive before halftime), and Riverheads didn't stop Draft but one time on downs, that is also a statement of fact. Objective people pretty much knew the last team with the ball would have a good shot to win it.
As has happened over the years you and I are never going to agree. I do not have rose colored glasses and think every think is rosy, but I am also not arrogant enough to think I know more than the 7 game officials. I didn't agree with a pile of stuff that night, but I also wasn't on the field and communicating with the other 6 guys officiating the game.
In the end the game is over and nothing we talk about will affect that.
PS
And if this wasn't about Draft losing, why do I not see you losing your mind about other teams that might have had the same thing happen? I get it, its personal but if you really are going to say that this is not pretty much standard week to week and something every team has to deal with, then who has the altered sense of reality here? For the record the clock operator needs to be a neutral VHSL official IMO. That would solve some issues anyway..........
I am sure that you want me to drop it or ignore it so it can go away, but that is not going to happen. Stuarts Draft has lost before, will lose again, and will win again. All those will happen against Riverheads as well.
This goes beyond the results of a football game. WAY beyond. If the score had been reversed with 2 minutes left, you wouldn't have heard a peep out of me, and if you had it would have been congratulations. The Riverheads team played a great game, and showed why they are regarded as one of the best programs in the state, no matter the size. And the coaches also did a great job adjusting from the 1st game.
The only thing I will say about social media is that for the most part it hasn't improved society in general, as I am sure you would agree, judging by a post before the game Friday.
I will answer one part of your message directly though. Saying it happens/doesn't happen other places. I have admitted that it could ABSOLUTELY happen anywhere (yes even SD), I am not pointing it out because of 1 PLAY though. If you can't see that it happening 6 times on ONE POSSESSION is cause for concern, then it doesn't matter if I showed you every piece of evidence available, you would talk around it. Again, SIX TIMES. If you are ok with that, then make sure if it happens at Strasburg this week or in the future don't say a word.
But back to subject at hand, and maybe putting it in your arena may help you understand a bit more. IIRC you are a wrestling coach. So exactly how would you feel if this happened to one of your players (I dunno what else you would call them). You are at a big tournament, heck say regionals for argument sake, and with all the different mats they use tappers. At the end of 1st period, there is a takedown and the tapper is 5 seconds late which results in extra back points. 2nd period, tapper is 3 seconds late and there is a reversal. End of 3rd period tapper is 4 seconds late and there is an escape. The 3rd period ends with match tied 12-12. Overtime comes and there is no scoring, until the referee adds 7 seconds and then the opposing wrestler scores. So the other wrestler got a bunch of points directly because of those errors, and now your wrestler is eliminated from moving to states.
Exactly how would you feel?
This goes beyond the results of a football game. WAY beyond. If the score had been reversed with 2 minutes left, you wouldn't have heard a peep out of me, and if you had it would have been congratulations. The Riverheads team played a great game, and showed why they are regarded as one of the best programs in the state, no matter the size. And the coaches also did a great job adjusting from the 1st game.
The only thing I will say about social media is that for the most part it hasn't improved society in general, as I am sure you would agree, judging by a post before the game Friday.
I will answer one part of your message directly though. Saying it happens/doesn't happen other places. I have admitted that it could ABSOLUTELY happen anywhere (yes even SD), I am not pointing it out because of 1 PLAY though. If you can't see that it happening 6 times on ONE POSSESSION is cause for concern, then it doesn't matter if I showed you every piece of evidence available, you would talk around it. Again, SIX TIMES. If you are ok with that, then make sure if it happens at Strasburg this week or in the future don't say a word.
But back to subject at hand, and maybe putting it in your arena may help you understand a bit more. IIRC you are a wrestling coach. So exactly how would you feel if this happened to one of your players (I dunno what else you would call them). You are at a big tournament, heck say regionals for argument sake, and with all the different mats they use tappers. At the end of 1st period, there is a takedown and the tapper is 5 seconds late which results in extra back points. 2nd period, tapper is 3 seconds late and there is a reversal. End of 3rd period tapper is 4 seconds late and there is an escape. The 3rd period ends with match tied 12-12. Overtime comes and there is no scoring, until the referee adds 7 seconds and then the opposing wrestler scores. So the other wrestler got a bunch of points directly because of those errors, and now your wrestler is eliminated from moving to states.
Exactly how would you feel?
You really think that doesn’t happen in wrestling lol? And I don’t care if you drop it or not because the outcome is the same. You have focused on the “facts” of your clock issue and I would argue that there were some discrepancies in the area of penalties but I only mentioned one of the most egregious.
However we do agree it was a game played by two really good teams and that’s about all we will agree on.
And going back to answer your specific question how I would feel? I have had that happen in states with my son and as pissed as I was, I told him not to ever leave it to an official or the kid tapping. So I didn’t blame the human error and before you go on a tangent about it being 6 times or whatever. If your coaches thought it was that bad they would have addressed it with the white hat then. Very specific he was told why they were adding time when he walked across the field on that last drive but maybe they didn’t tell all the fans.
However we do agree it was a game played by two really good teams and that’s about all we will agree on.
And going back to answer your specific question how I would feel? I have had that happen in states with my son and as pissed as I was, I told him not to ever leave it to an official or the kid tapping. So I didn’t blame the human error and before you go on a tangent about it being 6 times or whatever. If your coaches thought it was that bad they would have addressed it with the white hat then. Very specific he was told why they were adding time when he walked across the field on that last drive but maybe they didn’t tell all the fans.
Well, I know the answer to that as well, in fact I know what all has been done about it.
No, the outcome will not change, Riverheads will go down as winning the game in THEIR allotted time.
I also did assume that it happens in wrestling, that was kind of my point. But I am pretty positive if it happened over and over like what was described, you would have raised hell about it, not the aww shucks you are trying to describe.
Its funny you have still not really addressed the issue there, but yet want to use "whataboutism".
All that is needed for me to be A OK with you is to say IF that happened (as I know that nobody from Riverheads will actually admit that it happened, even if they saw all the evidence), then that is a shame that it ended like that.
But as I have said, there are those who have no horse in the race that have seen just some of this evidence and...
I had forgotten to remark about the last play of half, when as you said he was OOB. A good yard or two INBOUNDS. If requested, I am sure I can get you a picture/screenshot of that. The thing that those who aren't buying this evidence thing are probably going off saying "well you can't tell that on NFHS or video from pressbox". Nope, only play that is evident is the play it didn't run that @rhsgrad referenced. But we got this neat little thing now with other cameras (not the variety that you can talk into either.
Unless you want to continue with this discussion, I will leave you with this bud. Please if this happens to your team anywhere at any time now, don't come on here or anywhere else and say something about it and expect to be taken seriously. Once, yep can happen anywhere. The best timekeep in world can make a mistake. Twice, seems a bit odd, but ok I get it, exciting time...
So I will bow out now unless there is a comment about anything aside from the last play of 1st half. At least I think I will bow out
Bow out if you want because until it’s locked you aren’t going to dictate the narrative pal. You keep talking about evidence, the last play of the half was a late hit and I said it may have been OOB. After rewatching it he clearly was short of going out but when a QB goes into a baseball slide they normally are protected even in HS. It wasn’t called so it is what it is, but I do know what I seen live and again on film was an unsportsmanlike late hit, period. Furthermore the side judge on your side called an illegal man downfield on a FB coming out of the backfield on the 30 yard pass in the 3rd quarter but I hadn’t brought that up either. So the officials had their moments overall but keep track of the clock for me please since that was the only thing that could have affected the outcome.
The clock stuff is your passive aggressive way of saying you deserved to win. Draft had 4 defensive possessions that they could have stopped Riverheads but didn’t, please mister wizard explain how that happened in simple terms since you are so much smarter than everyone else.
I have tried about 4 times to exit by telling you how much I think of what everyone would agree is a quality Draft team and that I can even see how you would feel the way you do but that I won’t agree with you on the amount or the degree of impact the clock had.
Now here we are and this has devolved into a nothing post but if you want to keep going, I promise I am your huckleberry.
The clock stuff is your passive aggressive way of saying you deserved to win. Draft had 4 defensive possessions that they could have stopped Riverheads but didn’t, please mister wizard explain how that happened in simple terms since you are so much smarter than everyone else.
I have tried about 4 times to exit by telling you how much I think of what everyone would agree is a quality Draft team and that I can even see how you would feel the way you do but that I won’t agree with you on the amount or the degree of impact the clock had.
Now here we are and this has devolved into a nothing post but if you want to keep going, I promise I am your huckleberry.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣.
You want the answer on the illegal man downfield, guess what. BAD CALL. You see, I don't think everything is in SD favor.
But sure huckleberry (apparently I am supposed to be scared of thiss, I dunno), you think having an extra 30 seconds in a game that the final play (4th down) was snapped with 11 seconds to go has no bearing. Gotcha
Like I said, even if you see the evidence you won't agree so that shows how much you care about calling it right down the middle.
Now we have resorted to talking about a couple calls that the officials made. Of course you backtrack about the one, and I have admitted I thought the other one was a bad call. Maybe I should go through the film again and see if I can find a holding, of course that NEVER happens. Let me guess, the next thing you will tell me is there was no Facemask on the play of offsetting penalties.
But the funniest thing to me is you started by defending these officials and how knowledgeable they are and head of this, but now that you don't like the conversation you want to discuss how they failed.
But as I said before, how could it be possible that this is a "just because SD lost thing" when others from different parts of this state think the same thing? Could it possibly be that it is because of the MERITS of this and not because it is SD?
As for not stopping them, I have said a few times now this has nothing to do with the team or anything else. In fact, Riverheads may very well have not needed it, but that is what happens when you get it.
30>11........
Good luck against Strasburg and good luck on the mats. I guess I will go drown my sorrows now and shake in mu boots because you are my huckleberry. REAL mature in fact. I actually expected more than you than that, and that is being real
Never intended for you to be scared because it was in no way a threat. Just letting you know that we can continue to talk in circles as long as you want to try to convince me that you are the expert with all the answers.
But let me get this straight, all you are wanting me to say is the game should have went your way, correct? Ok, you should have won because the time keeper screwed you over. Wait did that change anything, nope didn’t think so. Your opinion (facts and evidence or not) doesn’t matter to the outcome.
My statement about the officials is also still true, one of the better crews in the area. They can also be human and fallible kind of like time keepers everywhere except Draft apparently.
Not that anyone cares but the real reason that I won’t let it go at this point is that the original questions/critique was by longtime who by any account is one of the fairest people on the boards. His was an observation made as a fan not as slight to a great Draft team. Your condescending response pissed me off and frankly the attitude that you are that only one involved with this game that could possibly know anything about football.
But let me get this straight, all you are wanting me to say is the game should have went your way, correct? Ok, you should have won because the time keeper screwed you over. Wait did that change anything, nope didn’t think so. Your opinion (facts and evidence or not) doesn’t matter to the outcome.
My statement about the officials is also still true, one of the better crews in the area. They can also be human and fallible kind of like time keepers everywhere except Draft apparently.
Not that anyone cares but the real reason that I won’t let it go at this point is that the original questions/critique was by longtime who by any account is one of the fairest people on the boards. His was an observation made as a fan not as slight to a great Draft team. Your condescending response pissed me off and frankly the attitude that you are that only one involved with this game that could possibly know anything about football.
I never once have said I was the only one involved in this game. And I don't think I even hinted at the fact/opinion/whatever you want to call it that I am smarter than others.
I would 100% agree about @longtimerhsfan . I would have said the exact same about you, maybe not as eloquent as he is. But I would assume that you had heard the rumblings about the clock issues before I said a word. And I must point out, that the 2nd of his posts wasn't just an observation, he laid into the official, with words like "sinking to a low level, formal complaint, and Accountability". And the ONLY part that addressed what he said was "1st: I will address the spot play that was discussed and upset about. It was marked one spot by one side judge, another by the other with him saying his knee was down. It wasn't moved back for no reason. You can say it was the WRONG spot which is fine, but there was a reason."
And in fact, he wasn't replied to, it was another post to the thread. But we can just chalk thst up to semantics. Aside from that one part, my post was not intended at all for anyone in particular.
Ya may not believe it, but I actually have no ill will AT ALL for any Riverheads fan, or anything bad to say about the team or coaches. That includes you.
And no, nothing that you say will change the outcome. Nothing will change the outcome. That is above my pay grade anyway. But, just glossing over it like it wasn't a big deal is less than honest in my book.
Go ahead and have the opinion that had the clock been run correctly that Riverheads would have run something different and still won. I may disagree, but its a fair point to make. Make the statement that the Riverheads football team doesn't deserve this, and my answer may surprise you, THEY don't. But to say that having extra time in a game where the final play gets snapped at 11 seconds had little bearing is either lying to yourself or not wanting to look at it objectively. Now if you wanted to comment and say you didn't believe me about the clock, I mean I know the answer, but that is a completely different argument.
Or maybe you were unaware of the times of the last 2 plays at the 1. We could even have had the agree to disagree on if he were in on 1, both, or neither. That also wouldn't change the outcome.
It is what it is. But a hypothetical, you will have to go down a short rabbit hole with me here. Whether you believe me or not on the evidence, lets assume just for a moment that I am dead on balls accurate (almost as good a movie as the one you referenced) on my numbers, so Riverheads did indeed get 30 extra seconds. Lets then say VHSL agreed. So they are now saying there was enough evidence. What would you say if they then came out and reversed the game? Obviously that is not going to happen, but how would you feel about that? Would you take more issue with the VHSL decision, or the reason for thwir decision?
This ongoing discussion has made me re-think my Sunday post and realize that I could have worded my comments differently. I am referring to the statements I made about "accountability, etc." after reviewing the game tape and seeing the replay of the two-yard setback.
When I watched that live, I was annoyed by it as many of the fans were. As I later learned when I watched the tape, the announcers were taken aback by it as well. For what it was worth the Staunton Leader reporter who covered the story also mentioned it as a strange thing to see.
Then when I watched it on tape, I was even more confused and yes annoyed by it, because as I tried to say on Sunday, it just LOOKED bad. It came across as a very impulsive thing for that referee to do and at the time it seemed to have no connection to the play that had just been run.
Gunz has since clarified for us that the ball was moved back because an official on one side ruled that the ball carrier was down two yards before another official's mark. That is a very plausible explanation and if it had been made clear to us what the reason was (such as by the officials meeting to discuss it before the ball was moved back), then that particular ruling would have been far less controversial.
So I now realize that a more diplomatic thing for me to have done on Sunday was to express my concern in the form of a question as opposed to an accusation calling for the guy's head. For example, I could/should have said "I have reviewed the tape of this game and am still puzzled as to why the ball was moved back two yards. Does anyone know why that was done?"
As for the larger debate about the clock, I have to stay out of that one for the simple reason that I did not notice it. The only timing issues I was aware of were the two occasions when the refs called up to the press box to add time. That of course happens all the time in televised games and as a general rule the team that wants the clock to run the fastest so they can win the game is going to be the one that fusses about it whereas the team that can use the extra time is happy to have it.
The best way for all of us to look at this game is to realize that mistakes are going to be made in all situations in life, sports and otherwise. But nobody is going to win every time or lose every time. There will always be some balance.
For example, even though it has been something like 12 years now, Riverheads fans still recall feeling totally ripped off the night Wilson won at RHS when the quarterback scored the winning TD after he had clearly stepped out of bounds by at least a yard and a half and it was never called. The fact that he stepped out was evident on game tapes and not even CLOSE to being debatable but yet no official saw it and ruled him out.
SD fans will feel upset about this most recent situation for a time, but trust me, there will be other controversies that will go your way and help you win games just like there will be some that will go against Riverheads and cost them a game. For example, basketball will soon be upon us and we all know how many split second decisions and missed or close calls exist in that sport!
When I watched that live, I was annoyed by it as many of the fans were. As I later learned when I watched the tape, the announcers were taken aback by it as well. For what it was worth the Staunton Leader reporter who covered the story also mentioned it as a strange thing to see.
Then when I watched it on tape, I was even more confused and yes annoyed by it, because as I tried to say on Sunday, it just LOOKED bad. It came across as a very impulsive thing for that referee to do and at the time it seemed to have no connection to the play that had just been run.
Gunz has since clarified for us that the ball was moved back because an official on one side ruled that the ball carrier was down two yards before another official's mark. That is a very plausible explanation and if it had been made clear to us what the reason was (such as by the officials meeting to discuss it before the ball was moved back), then that particular ruling would have been far less controversial.
So I now realize that a more diplomatic thing for me to have done on Sunday was to express my concern in the form of a question as opposed to an accusation calling for the guy's head. For example, I could/should have said "I have reviewed the tape of this game and am still puzzled as to why the ball was moved back two yards. Does anyone know why that was done?"
As for the larger debate about the clock, I have to stay out of that one for the simple reason that I did not notice it. The only timing issues I was aware of were the two occasions when the refs called up to the press box to add time. That of course happens all the time in televised games and as a general rule the team that wants the clock to run the fastest so they can win the game is going to be the one that fusses about it whereas the team that can use the extra time is happy to have it.
The best way for all of us to look at this game is to realize that mistakes are going to be made in all situations in life, sports and otherwise. But nobody is going to win every time or lose every time. There will always be some balance.
For example, even though it has been something like 12 years now, Riverheads fans still recall feeling totally ripped off the night Wilson won at RHS when the quarterback scored the winning TD after he had clearly stepped out of bounds by at least a yard and a half and it was never called. The fact that he stepped out was evident on game tapes and not even CLOSE to being debatable but yet no official saw it and ruled him out.
SD fans will feel upset about this most recent situation for a time, but trust me, there will be other controversies that will go your way and help you win games just like there will be some that will go against Riverheads and cost them a game. For example, basketball will soon be upon us and we all know how many split second decisions and missed or close calls exist in that sport!
Here is the passive agressive way of saying I am the expert in the room so listen to my take on this, "And I also have a better understanding of it than most because of doing it myself." That was the shot that was to say anyone that disagrees with your take on this is not valid.
I will say it again, about EVERY game has hidden time in it if you look at it on a myopic level. I would venture to say even with you keeping time there are discrepancies however UNINTENTIONAL. Look its pretty simple to me at this point. If the implication is that the clock issue that we all are aware of (I dont agree on the number of times or quantity but ok) was on purpose, then sure I see your gripe. Is that your stance that it was intentional? If not, then for petes sake come back to reality
Here is the whole point of your argument, "Make the statement that the Riverheads football team doesn't deserve this, and my answer may surprise you, THEY don't." Beat around the bush and compliment 100 times but this is where you stand. If it was about who deserved to win, we wouldn't need to play some of these games would we (its rhetorical, you dont have to answer)? Games arent played on paper or in the vacuum of perfection by the humans involved so that is an inherent part of the game.
Now to your VHSL question. Has there ever been a time that the outcome of a game was overturned? In a fantasy land where they would do that, sure I would be mad. Not about the loss or the reasoning but about a ruling made by the governing body to adjust an outcome based off of something they can control by instituting a neutral clock operator to eliminate even the chance of a mistake happening if that is that big of a bearing on games overall.
As longtime has stated, I am sure there will be more controversies down the road in this series because of proximity and frankly the dislike we have for each other. This was a year that Draft had looked forward to having with this phenomenal group of kids that had success from the time they put pads on in Little League. I realize that part as much as anyone locally but in every game there is a winner and loser regardless of what we feel was deserved. Clock or no clock it was a great game, and both teams deserved to win based on their play on the field. In a lot of ways I hated to see Landon's season end because he is such a great leader of his peers in addition to a very good football player but someone was going to lose that game. If there had been less time maybe Riverheads doesn't score or maybe they do, we will never know and can only speculate.
I will just say that while I disagree with you on a ton of things even outside this discussion, until this thread I have tried to be civil and not resort to accusations, quotes and such. This topic was just a bridge too far since the implication was that there was cheating (HOWEVER SUBTLE you made the accusation). Overall I do not hold any ill will towards you personally but will defend the program and fellow fans when that is the narrative being set by someone implying something nefarious going on.
I will say it again, about EVERY game has hidden time in it if you look at it on a myopic level. I would venture to say even with you keeping time there are discrepancies however UNINTENTIONAL. Look its pretty simple to me at this point. If the implication is that the clock issue that we all are aware of (I dont agree on the number of times or quantity but ok) was on purpose, then sure I see your gripe. Is that your stance that it was intentional? If not, then for petes sake come back to reality
Here is the whole point of your argument, "Make the statement that the Riverheads football team doesn't deserve this, and my answer may surprise you, THEY don't." Beat around the bush and compliment 100 times but this is where you stand. If it was about who deserved to win, we wouldn't need to play some of these games would we (its rhetorical, you dont have to answer)? Games arent played on paper or in the vacuum of perfection by the humans involved so that is an inherent part of the game.
Now to your VHSL question. Has there ever been a time that the outcome of a game was overturned? In a fantasy land where they would do that, sure I would be mad. Not about the loss or the reasoning but about a ruling made by the governing body to adjust an outcome based off of something they can control by instituting a neutral clock operator to eliminate even the chance of a mistake happening if that is that big of a bearing on games overall.
As longtime has stated, I am sure there will be more controversies down the road in this series because of proximity and frankly the dislike we have for each other. This was a year that Draft had looked forward to having with this phenomenal group of kids that had success from the time they put pads on in Little League. I realize that part as much as anyone locally but in every game there is a winner and loser regardless of what we feel was deserved. Clock or no clock it was a great game, and both teams deserved to win based on their play on the field. In a lot of ways I hated to see Landon's season end because he is such a great leader of his peers in addition to a very good football player but someone was going to lose that game. If there had been less time maybe Riverheads doesn't score or maybe they do, we will never know and can only speculate.
I will just say that while I disagree with you on a ton of things even outside this discussion, until this thread I have tried to be civil and not resort to accusations, quotes and such. This topic was just a bridge too far since the implication was that there was cheating (HOWEVER SUBTLE you made the accusation). Overall I do not hold any ill will towards you personally but will defend the program and fellow fans when that is the narrative being set by someone implying something nefarious going on.
I will comment on 1 thing here 1st, me saying that the Riverheads TEAM doesn't deserve this is the complete opposite of what you think I said. The TEAM doesn't deserve this controversy AT ALL. I assumed that was clear in my post, but I guess not.
As for the 1st paragraph, my point was that I SHOULD know the intricacies of the clock more than the common fan, since I do it. Thst is not a shot at anyone else.
And I don't know how many times I have said how great I thought Riverheads did that night. So once more, for the folks in the back, NOTHING I AM SAYING HAS A THING TO DO WITH THE TEAM, COACHES, OR FANS.
As for the fantasy land comment, I simply asked a hypothetical that would never happen (which I already acknowledged, so asking me if it had happened is a moot point), but rather if it happened and the game were to be reversed because of the of the issues, would you be more mad because the game were reversed or more mad because the governing body found sufficient evidence to overturn it. To me, you would HAVE to be mad at the reason causing the overturn, while also being upset about the overturn.
Apparently though you will not even consider the possibility that time wise I am correct, as you just stated you dont agree with number of times or total, thats fine. Not going to continue to tell you, because you would probably say the same thing even with seeing the evidence. And even if you agreed that it was the exact amount, you have already stated you don't think it was a big deal basically.
So it is what it is. The reason I continue to say about outside people agreeing, I have a biased view (even if I am objective), you have a biased view (even if you are objective), so someone with no horse in the race would probably be the best determining factor.
You can agree or disagree with whatever you want now, everyone by now should be aware of what happened. So I am bowing out of this. At least on here
Would anyone watch the clock to level of accuracy you did without being told to prior to watching? Likely not except the two times the officials added time. In a way that’s my point, it happens all the time and it’s not put under this microscope. If we go back through most games we will find time throughout, maybe not the 30 seconds you keep referring to but time none the less.
Either way this horse has been beaten to a pulp.
Either way this horse has been beaten to a pulp.
Last word because you asked the question, I saw some of them during the game, and starting before the time put back on. As I saw the one where it didn't run live. So yes I actually knew it was done at the game.
Cheers
Fair enough, I will just say I have never watched the clock to find discrepancies at a game in 25 years plus watching HS football. Obviously noticed when there was a problem here or there but to notice it to that degree shows more attention to detail than I have for sure.
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If my team is trying to make a defensive stand, and the clock operator is clearly erring on the side of the home team that’s driving, I’d be upset too. And it points to unprofessionalism in Riverheads’ press box that it happened six separate times on that final drive where seconds are precious. Sure, those folks are biased at every school, but all are expected to do a professional job.
Honesty is a pretty important thing to me. A dishonest clock operator deserves to be called out in this situation. Ain’t no changing the game results, but accountability for a game official who is dishonest or unprofessional is fair game.
Attempting to mischaracterize the point @Gunz41 is clearly making is a bad look. It shows me who is interested in honesty and who is not. I don’t see any way to explain away the clock issues as errors. Either the clock operator at RHS is dishonest or they’re a buffoon. Dishonest is much easier to believe.
Honesty is a pretty important thing to me. A dishonest clock operator deserves to be called out in this situation. Ain’t no changing the game results, but accountability for a game official who is dishonest or unprofessional is fair game.
Attempting to mischaracterize the point @Gunz41 is clearly making is a bad look. It shows me who is interested in honesty and who is not. I don’t see any way to explain away the clock issues as errors. Either the clock operator at RHS is dishonest or they’re a buffoon. Dishonest is much easier to believe.
Obviously film helped to narrow it down after the fact. Im not saying I noticed everything at game time.
You also need to factor in that I am used to looking up at clock. Either way doesn't matter.
Sincerely good luck against Strasburg (maybe longer) and wrestling
I keep seeing you use words in all CAPS
I appreciate your input, but I also watched the film and was at the game. During the game
, I saw two instances where time was added, and the officials clearly explained their decisions to both the coaches and the press box. You've mentioned SIX additional times where this occurred, and while I understand you're emphasizing your point by using ALL CAPS, I haven't seen any evidence to back that up. I really tried to spot the other six instances, but I couldn’t find them, nor could I identify an extra 30 seconds. If you have specific proof to share, I’d be happy to take another look.
Thanks!
