Would private schools want to be a part of VHSL?

[Keith_Stone33]

I saw a thread in the 3A and 4A boards that said LCA was suing the VHSL and that Virginia could possibly be one of those states that allows private schools to compete with public for state championships. One of the posters said the private schools in those states base their enrollment number by multiplying what they have by 1.5 and that is the classification they would be in for state.


So as the title asks: Would private schools want to be a part of VHSL?

 

[JOEWM2004]

Here is the story in the link below, in case anyone is interested.

I might be going out on a limb, but I can't think of any private school except LCA that would be interested in this. I might be wrong, but I just can't imagine any other private school that would want to join.

http://www.newsadvance.com/news/liberty-christian-academy-sues-virginia-high-school-league/article_1f4e2d38-ea94-11e3-ba79-001a4bcf6878.html

 

[Keith_Stone33]

I wouldn't think they (private schools as a whole) would want to join for a sport like football. I can see it more so with basketball, as 1 or 2 top recruits can make you a contender, whereas football requires more from the other teammates.

The only reason I could see private schools wanting to join the VHSL would be for scheduling/traveling purposes. If public schools could pick up power points from the privates then they may be more willing to play. And a team like Fishburne could save a whole lot of time and money on travel if they could schedule more local teams (Waynesboro, Stuarts Draft, Wilson to name a few).

 

[solseeker]

My gut feel is that most would not. I am not sure why LCA wants to, sure they have a reason though. There are not very many private schools that have enrollment numbers comparable to public schools. Most are really small compared to public schools. Also, most of the older schools I think have some built in rivalries that would not be maintained. Schedule is another issue, especially for the boarding schools. They just don't have the calender available to match public or private day schools. Most private boarding schools only have 2 weeks of preseason before their season starts and that is usually after public schools already start playing.

 

[JOEWM2004]

But if you really drill down on things, there are only a very few private schools that have scheduling issues. And there is usually a reason for that.

 

[Keith_Stone33]

Just for fun...

The folks on the other board thought LCA would classify as either 3A or 4A in
the VHSL, so I am going to say that Fishburne would either be 1A or 2A.
Apparently the multiplier is 1.5 to determine classifications, but I would think
for Male-only private schools, the multiplier would be higher (possibly 2.5?) to
compensate for not having any females included in the enrollment.

So lets
say privates and publics compete against one another in the near future...
(Doing this for Fishburne who is in division 3 for private schools I
think)
Private schools within an hour and half or less:
Division 1:

St. Christophers, Collegiate, Benedictine, LCA, Fork Union (FUMA is one hour, others are closer to hour and a half)

Division
2:
Blue Ridge (50 minutes or so) , STAB (half hour)

Division 3:
North Cross and Virginia Episcopal (around an hour and a half), Covenant (half hour)

Division 4:
Roanoke Catholic and Blessed Sacrament (hour and a half), massanutten military (hour and some change)

Grace Christian in Staunton has a new football program and I'm not sure when they will play varsity opponents but they are about 20 minutes away.

So there's roughly 13 teams in the private league within an hour and a half, with a few of those being less than an hour (3 or 4)

If they classify as 1A in VHSL some of the close games would be (this probably isnt all the schools, just ones I thought of):
Parry McCluer (50 minutes)
Altavista, Cumberland, William Campbell, Bath County, Covington (anywhere from an hour and 20 to an hour and 30 minutes)
About 6 teams

If they classify as 2A:
RE Lee, Riverheads, Wilson, Buffalo Gap (all within 30 minutes or less)
Nelson, East Rock, Page, Stonewall, Madison (all between 40 minutes to an hour)
Goochland, Luray, Strasburg, Buckingham, Appomattax (all between an hour to an hour and a half)
About 14 teams

If they classify at 3A: (which I find unlikely)
Waynesboro, Stuarts Draft, Fort Defiance, TA, Broadway, Spotswood, Rockbridge, William Monroe, Western Albemarle, Monticello (with half being under 30 minutes, and the other half being under 50 minutes)
There's 8 but there are bound to be more


I would be curious to see how they would fare against the public schools in these divisions

 

[solseeker]

Re: Just for fun...

It would be hard to tell how the private schools would be classified. Most are really small. DII football is 153-230 boys, DIII is 95 to 152 and well DIV is under 94. Even if you adjusted the enrollment by a factor of 2, only DI schools would register on the VHSL scale. I don't recall what it is but 2 times 94 (or less) isn't many. Even DII would only have an enrollment of 460 students. I don't think this would be above 2A. I think the privates would fair ok with similar sized schools, football is definitely not an advantage for private schools like other sports (and I will just leave it at that). You do not have kids transferring, or choosing to go to a private school because it is a football powerhouse. It is much more slanted toward private schools in other states, not so in Virginia.

One team you can use as a gauge is FUMA. They do routinely play public schools near them. They have played Goochland, Powhatan, Monticello, and who can forget the game against Hermitage, over the last few years. From what I could see on Wikipedia their enrollment is about 300-350. so they are a fair sized school. They can compete, I think they beat Powhatan and Goochland 2 years ago. that was the year Goochland won 2A state title and Powhatan did make 4A playoffs. The Hermitage game was not a contest but Hermitage was also thought to be the best, at least one of the best, in the state that year.

The size of the school doesnt mean as much as the talent they have, for that year at least. That season FUMA had some talent, some DI players including Hackenberg. Last year, not so much. They had some athletes, guys that could run and make you miss, but as a whole team they were not very solid. My sons school played them both years so I got to see them in person. The same can be said for my son's team. 3 football seasons ago they were undefeated state champs and probably could have competed well against 2A publics, maybe even made noise in 3A. They had 6 DI players and their entire OL/DL went on to play in college. 2 years ago they got much younger, replaced the entire line (the OL/DL are almost always the same guys) but still had 3 of the DI guys, QB/RB/TE who was also safety/CB. They still did well. this past season, all those guys graduated, they had half of the players on the football team than they did the previous 2 years.

 

[Keith_Stone33]

I'm with you

There's bound to be another enrollment multiplier for male-only schools... If an all boys school has 150 students, it is like a coed school that has ~300 (150 boys, 150 girls), and you would still need to figure the multiplier in there. So the way I could see it is: 300*1.5=450. VAprepsRod seems to know how all that works. I am by no means an expert.

I'm not sure what you mean by D1 schools being the only ones to register on the VHSL scale though, especially with the multiplier... Wouldn't they just be in the classification that they qualify at? Most likely 1A for the really small schools you speak of.

 

[solseeker]

Re: I'm with you

Yes, that is really what I meant. Only DI schools would be above 1A. Some are rather large, Woodberry I seem to remember has a large enrollment. VISAA used to have a file that showed enrollment by school but I could not find it again. I think someof the NOVA schools are pretty large also. I do remembering seeing an article where Blessed Sacrament Hugenot only has about 40-50 boys but almost all of them play football and they are constantly a contender in DIV.

 

[DinwiddieProud]

Re: I'm with you

Solseeker, I hope you have been doing well. We haven't had the opportunity to banter back and forth lately. I understand your position, (mostly an opinion on privates competing with publics). But, knowing your strong stance on the Tebow Bill, and you seem to be a little more on the side of the VHSL here. I know this is really a different topic at it's core, but I raised my eyebrow a twitch when I read what you posted.

And for everybody, if, and a big if, you could frame the rules for private schools to create a level playing field, how could you fairly and accurately police compliance? And if you could accomplish this, would it be a good thing or a bad thing after everything settled down, say 10 years down the road? And remember, you have to considered the ramifications across the board in all sports and activities, from football to forensics.

 

[DinwiddieProud]

Re: I'm with you

PS. Happy Father's Day Sol, and all the other Dads!

 

[maroons1]

Who says you have to multiply by 1.5 or 2.5? I say make all private schools play 6A if they want to join the VHSL. They also must have set boundaries. For LCA, since they are located within the city of Lynchburg, they can only allow students that live in Lynchburg to play. All student-athletes that live outside of Lynchburg must follow the same transfer rules that the public schools must follow. LCA must also stop all affiliation with Liberty University as this gives them a huge advantage in facilities and finances.

 

[solseeker]

Re: I'm with you

Thank you and a belated Happy Father's Day to you also.

Yes, I see the private school much differently than the Tebow Bill. The Tebow Bill would still only allow a home schooler to play for their school district. Obviously a private school is much different. Private schools do recruit, but not in the sense that everyone else assumes. They have to recruit to get students, especially boarding schools. Some of the day schools do not have to as much. They do not recruit individuals, and like public schools it is against VISAA policy to recruit athletically. Yes I am sure some do just like the public schools but is mostly sports other than football. There are two that look obvious to me but I have no facts so I won't go there. I think if you pay attention to all high school sports you would come up with the same 2 sports, one I think everyone sees. Even though it is not always an athletic advantage, most of the time I see it as a disadvantage, it is different than what public schools can do. I also see the reclassifying as an advantage. Most of the students who do reclass are good athletes that either need more academic support, more structure, or more exposure. I see this in the school my kids go to. I do not see anything wrong with this, as a parent I think we all want to do everything we can for our own children's benefit. That is why I have put two of my three into private school for high school. I definitely don't see this as fair to compete against public schools at least on league play. FUMA plays public schools all the time, I don't get LCA's problem. Maybe it is their reputation as I have gathered from other folks' comments. I don't know much about LCA, other than they are very strongly tied to Liberty.

I do not see any of the private schools except the DI schools that could compete week in and week out with public schools of any size. They just don't have the quality of depth. Even FUMA has the depth problem. Yes they have a large football team, but if they aren't starting, there is typically a reason. After the starters most private school talent level drops considerably. This is just my observation and I have seen every private State Championship final team except LCA and Fredericksburg Christian in the last 3 years. At least a school like FUMA can have separate starters on O and D. DII schools and below, you may not see any more then 15 or so starters, most play both ways and special teams. My son has only come off the field for Kick offs and punts for 2 years now, other than an occasional breather or injury. That will not change his senior year either. College will probably be a shock to him, he will actually get to rest during a game.

 

[JOEWM2004]

Re: I'm with you

I'm going to have to disagree with the reclassification bit. I think that needs to stop. It just seems to give private schools that do it routinely a bad name. That in turn makes it difficult to schedule people, especially public schools (see comments made by people around the Hampton Roads area after playing certain schools in basketball). Just my opinion though.

 

[Keith_Stone33]

Re: I'm with you

I'm not necessarily in favor of VHSL and VISAA competing for a state championship, but I do think it would be cool if they were to compete as a fundraiser or benefit game. Exclude the 5A and 6A in this, just have D1 vs 4A, D2 vs 3A, D3 vs 2A, D4 vs 1A.... Or if those numbers are too far off: D1 champ vs 2A champ, D2 champ vs 2A runner up, D3 champ vs 1A champ, D4 champ vs 1A runner up... Something like that would be fun to watch IMO, especially if all were played at the same stadium on the same day or 2 games a piece at each stadium.

 

[solseeker]

Re: I'm with you

You have the right to your opinion but would it be different if you had a child who was athletically gifted enough to play in college, maybe even on scholarship, but had a bad year academically? That year making them ineligible per NCAA guidelines. Before you answer, that bad year could be because of numerous reasons, divorce, illness to self or other family member, relocation, or just general teenage issues.

I have seen the benefits of allowing a child to reclassify, get their head on straight, focus and earn a DI scholarship. There were family issues and the public school they attended was too large to notice or they were unable to provide the necessary oversight to keep the child involved in their academics. This is an issue that probably happens at most public schools. Teachers do not have the resources to go the extra mile for everyone that needs it or can benefit from it.

As a teenager I am sure most of us made mistakes, I know I did and I wish I could have do-over for high school sometimes. There is the option to prep a year but if you take away sports, or any extra curricular for that matter, to someone who is already "trouble", what motivation do they have to wait until they can go to post graduate school.

For these reasons my opinion is that reclassifying can be a good thing. But as I mentioned, I do see it as an advantage to private schools and unfair to force public schools and private schools compete against each other. If they choose to anyway I have no issue with it.

 

[JOEWM2004]

Re: I'm with you


Honestly, no it would not make a difference for me personally. I think that the kids that were going to get a DI scholarship were going to get one to start with. Kids do it in public school all the time and they don't get an extra year.

I think one thing that we could do to make things better on the private school side (this is taking a wild detour from the original topic) is that if we continue to allow schools to reclassify, they should identify themselves and be forced to play up a division (possibly forcing them all to play up at DI). If you are going to allow student athletes an extra year to better themselves so they can get a DI scholarship, then you obviously are playing on a different level than your competitors and need to play up with schools that share the same athletic philosophy. Thoughts?

 

[solseeker]

Re: I'm with you

I have to disagree that someone who is a DI athlete would have gotten a scholarship anyway. I have personally seen it. Now from a public school you see more prep a year after high school to get their academics up, maybe even for a specific school versus another school that may have lesser academic standard. You can go through this site right after signing day each year and see there are a good number that will prep or JUCO when they were 3/4/5 star players from sophomore year on. Falling just short of the academic standard is different than a complete bad year. Prep or JUCO may still be an option over reclassifying, I will not argue that.

Philosophically I can't disagree with the fact that they are playing on a different level and playing up would be the right thing. Realistically, there are not that many DI schools and they are concentrated in certain areas of the state, mostly Richmond and NOVA. As large as the Tidewater area is, there is only 1 DI school, Norfolk Academy. The same is true for Lynchburg/Roanoke, only LCA is a DI school. Just because they are DI classified also does not mean they are any better athletically or that the school is concentrated on athletics more than others. I think it is similar to public schools, the more students you have the better chance you have to find those few difference makers and added depth.

Personally I think keeping them separated as they are now is the way to go.

I also found on VISAA's website they have an agreement between VHSL and VISAA just for the purpose of athletic eligibility. It lists the schools that will follow VHSL Eligibility regulations (Appendix B, Handbook) all the time, when they play a VHSL school and those who do not ever. Guess which category LCA is in? I am not sure what those requirements are, I haven't had the chance to read Appendix B yet.

 

[wikki]

Agree 100%