4A TOC Final - 1998 Salem v. 2013 Dinwiddie

[CRF4Dan]

How ironic that the week we find out that Dinwiddie and Salem will be playing in the near future, we get this matchup in the final for the 2016 TOC. We have been voting for a few weeks now, it began with 30 teams, now only 2 remain. Spartans or Generals... who was the best?

 

[numb3rs]

It's too bad that 1998 is the season before Gilliam Ratings and VHSL Reference begin to see what their opinions are.

The 1999 Salem team is rated 107.47 by Gilliam and 96.8 by VHSL Reference. Most Spartan fans consider the 1999 team to be a little below the 1998 team. The 2013 Dinwiddie team is rated 119.14 by Gilliam and 101.0 by VHSL Reference.

Here's the schedule for the 1998 Salem Spartans.

Regular Season
9/4 - Brookville W 42-7
9/11 - Pulaski Co. W 47-0
9/18 - at Cave Spring W 41-17
9/25 - Blacksburg W 36-0
10/2 - at Lord Botetourt W 31-7
10/9 - at William Byrd W 26-0
10/16 - at Northside W 19-0
10/23 - Alleghany W 41-0
10/30 - at Christiansburg W 43-14
11/6 - Rockbridge Co. W 58-0

Playoffs
11/13 - Jefferson Forest W 40-0
11/20 - Heritage (Lyn) W 26-0
11/27 - Martinsville W 17-0
12/5 - Lafayette, W 28-18

 

[DinwiddieProud]

Dinwiddie 2013

Beat Monacan 56-13
Beat Jamestown 55-7
Beat Caroline 50-20
Beat Colonial Heights 77-6
Beat Petersburg 44-6
Beat Prince George 55-6
Beat Matoaca 45-21
Beat Hopewell 43-7
Beat Thomas Dale 21-0
Beat Meadowbrook 38-13

Playoffs
Beat Jamestown 63-0
Beat I C Norcom 42-0
Beat Lake Taylor 28-0
Beat Heritage 45-14
Beat Sherando 56-14

 

[DinwiddieProud]

It would be a hell of a game, wouldn't it?

 

[mike salem]

It would be a hell of a game, wouldn't it?

Yes, I think it would be a great matchup. Hopefully we'll get a titanic matchup like that one in the next couple of years between these 2!

 

[shauntclair]

Actually, Salem has an advantage. It's the program and this year's State Championship. The Tidewater myth is now broken, as it was with Phoebus. Spartan's showed it's still blocking and tackling that win games. Add in planning, Coaching and attitude, this will be a tough group to put down for the next few years.

Like North Carolina last night. They had the best players and the most talent but they lost to the better team. Hopefully that generates to a bunch of other squads who decide fear and quit are not in their vocabulary.

 

[southbottomU]

Saw both teams. Would have been a low scoring defensive field position game. Salem had a great kicking game. Might have made the difference

 

[shauntclair]

Saw both teams. Would have been a low scoring defensive field position game. Salem had a great kicking game. Might have made the difference

I disagree with all due respect. Generals ran the spread. Something the Spartans had never seen. Dinwiddie had a devastating defense and Ladarius Webb on offense. The Generals were great all around. So were the Spartans. That OLine could have moved Mountains. The spread and Webb makes this a 2 TD difference. IMO.

FYI. I also had LT by 2 TD's in the 2015 Championship because of their special players. Didn't happen. So much for opinions. Although I still think LT wins 9 of 10. Just another opinion that means little.

 

[Salem1991]

I would definitely give that one to Dinwiddie. That team was absolutely stacked with talent. I wouldn't count out the Spartans though. That Dinwiddie team deserves extreme praise for what level they were playing on. They were miles out of any 4a teams' leagues at the time.

 

[shauntclair]

I would definitely give that one to Dinwiddie. That team was absolutely stacked with talent. I wouldn't count out the Spartans though. That Dinwiddie team deserves extreme praise for what level they were playing on. They were miles out of any 4a teams' leagues at the time.

With you there. Especially with the never count out a Spartan. They certainly proved that this year. With what that defense did against JF and then repeated with LT, those boys were bad ass. And folks don't give enough credit to the DC and the attitude Mag's instilled in them. The opposition had to earn every yard and with extreme prejudice as the price.

I still give it to the Generals but that would have been one hell of a game.

 

[Salem1991]

With you there. Especially with the never count out a Spartan. They certainly proved that this year. With what that defense did against JF and then repeated with LT, those boys were bad ass. And folks don't give enough credit to the DC and the attitude Mag's instilled in them. The opposition had to earn every yard and with extreme prejudice as the price.

I still give it to the Generals but that would have been one hell of a game.

Agreed

 

[DinwiddieProud]

Me too! Maybe we have the chance of have a great matchup in 2017 and 2018. And if the stars line up, maybe a second game one year along the way.

 

[southbottomU]

Both defenses would have slowed the offenses. Salem would have kicked off into the endzone making Dinwiddie drive whole field. Punting would have been 45 yards plus. Dinwiddie would have had little to no time to throw. Would have been difficult for either team to run. Both teams would have had to make game adjustments because of how good both were. Turnovers would probably have decided the game. Salem would have played press coverage just like Lake Taylor

 

[mike salem]

Me too! Maybe we have the chance of have a great matchup in 2017 and 2018. And if the stars line up, maybe a second game one year along the way.

Maybe a meeting at the end of this year in Lynchburg as a preview of what's to come for the next couple of years.

 

[hamspear]

I am bias, because my team got whooped by the Generals in the state final. However, they are best 4A team I have ever seen for sure, close second to the Briar woods team a year before. I did not see the Salem team from 98. I believe Dinwiddie could have been vulnerable if a team had a massive O line like Salem regular has. But the team speed across the field, especially in the skill positions would have to be to much to overcome. Dinwiddie would have beaten 2015 Salem in my opinion also by a considerable margin. all these teams are great teams for the season they played. And all should be proud of the state championship they own. Two great programs.

 

[southbottomU]

Offensive line left tackle 6 7 315. Left guard 6 2 255. Center. 6 0 260. Right guard 6 1 250. Right tackle 6 5 305. All seniors Tight end 6 2 265. Tailback. 6 2. 215. (Was moved to outside linebacker at uva. Played for ravens). Full back 5 11. 185 (maybe best full back in school history and that includes Ramsey) Defense was very fast and athletic. For example defensive end was state 300 meter hurdles champion. Middle linebacker 4a defensive player of the year. Corners ran legitimate 4.5 and played press coverage all year
Kicker kicked off into endzone and had 50 yard range for field goals. No player played both ways. Many of the same kids would win the state championship in basketball that very same year. Plenty athletic. One more point. Salem had 17 seniors starting that year. They only returned five starters (no offensive lineman) The 99 team playing with 17 new starters that had played behind the 98 seniors went 14 0 and won the state championship. Big, deep, fast, very physical, well coached and a significant mean streak. No one will ever know what they might have done against Dinwiddie or any other team but don't call them unathletic or slow. There is a reason that Salem fans still call them the best of seven state championship teams. And Salem fans have seen the States best in 4a.

 

[Smallfry2015]

Sounds very impressive , no doubt. Both teams definitely the best of there time.

 

[SpartanOfYore]

Offensive line left tackle 6 7 315. Left guard 6 2 255. Center. 6 0 260. Right guard 6 1 250. Right tackle 6 5 305. All seniors Tight end 6 2 265. Tailback. 6 2. 205. (Was moved to outside linebacker at uva. Played for ravens). Full back 5 11. 185 (maybe best full back in school history and that includes Ramsey) Defense was very fast and athletic. For example defensive end was state 300 meter hurdles champion. Middle linebacker 4a defensive player of the year. Corners ran legitimate 4.5 and played press coverage all year
Kicker kicked off into endzone and had 50 yard range for field goals. No player played both ways. Many of the same kids would win the state championship in basketball that very same year. Plenty athletic

Both Salem's football and basketball teams were blessed with an abundance of talent in '98 -'99, as what I consider the school's Golden Age of sports was nearing its conclusion. Dennis Haley, the Ravens player you mentioned, was the only football player who started for the AA basketball champs. Trey Shiflett, defensive back and placekicker, was a key basketball reserve - very streaky outside shooter. Andy Mullins and Chris Gumaer were other top football guys who were reserves on the bball team, but they didn't play a lot that bball season (both would be starters their senior year of hoops). Manuel Lewis was also on both squads, but as a sophomore, didn't have a big role in either sport (he would play a huge part in the 2000 football title).

Haley was a phenomenal athlete. Had he chosen to concentrate on basketball, he probably could have played for a mid-major DI program as a somewhat-undersized power forward, or as a small forward. Unless I'm mistaken, he's still the only Spartan to ever play in any of the NFL, NBA, NHL or MLB.

 

[SpartanOfYore]

One last, slightly off-topic note of interest: that '98-'99 Spartan basketball team mentioned above won the AA state championship without any players that went on to play any level of college basketball. That has to be a pretty rare occurrence. A few could have played DIII ball but didn't, for various reasons, and Haley's destiny was on the gridiron.

 

[southbottomU]

Football in 98 was not as wide open offensively as 2013 or today. Salem 98 was the ultimate ground and pound team. They rarely threw the ball more than six times a game. They usually ran the ball between the tackles on almost every play and it didn't matter how many the defense put in the box. They physically beat teams up. The huge line only played one way and wore teams down. They were fine with punting the ball because the defense was spectacular and often scored points on their own. Today's Salem teams are much more wide open. Would be interesting to see how Salems 98 style would translate to today's football.

 

[shauntclair]

Football in 98 was not as wide open offensively as 2013 or today. Salem 98 was the ultimate ground and pound team. They rarely threw the ball more than six times a game. They usually ran the ball between the tackles on almost every play and it didn't matter how many the defense put in the box. They physically beat teams up. The huge line only played one way and wore teams down. They were fine with punting the ball because the defense was spectacular and often scored points on their own. Today's Salem teams are much more wide open. Would be interesting to see how Salems 98 style would translate to today's football.

I have to say, one a Salem's greatest forte's is they don't have many players that go both ways. Depth is a tremendous factor when when the game is close at the end. Most 4As are putting about 40 out there. Salem puts out quite a bit more.

 

[mike salem]

I have to say, one a Salem's greatest forte's is they don't have many players that go both ways. Depth is a tremendous factor when when the game is close at the end. Most 4As are putting about 40 out there. Salem puts out quite a bit more.

For the championship game 53 Spartans dressed. If I'm not mistaken only 1 played both ways (A Ramsey, FB/DE) That has become more common with Salem in recent years because of the way JV & Varsity have beaten most of their opponents by HT. JV will play the 1st half of their game and in a lot of cases the 2nd half of the Varsity games. Because of this experience it has really allowed the coaches to see players as specialist for 1 position and get them that experience early.

 

[shauntclair]

For the championship game 53 Spartans dressed. If I'm not mistaken only 1 played both ways (A Ramsey, FB/DE) That has become more common with Salem in recent years because of the way JV & Varsity have beaten most of their opponents by HT. JV will play the 1st half of their game and in a lot of cases the 2nd half of the Varsity games. Because of this experience it has really allowed the coaches to see players as specialist for 1 position and get them that experience early.

I come from an environment where JV simply does not play Varsity, except where they are called up for depth at playoff time. Even then, they rarely play. Perhaps that needs to be rethought. But I still believe in no Freshman plays Varsity....ever. I just think that's best for the kids and the culture of the program. Safety and tradition. Wins don't matter. Kids do.

 

[mike salem]

I come from an environment where JV simply does not play Varsity, except where they are called up for depth at playoff time. Even then, they rarely play. Perhaps that needs to be rethought. But I still believe in no Freshman plays Varsity....ever. I just think that's best for the kids and the culture of the program. Safety and tradition. Wins don't matter. Kids do.

This is Salem's JV occasionally used in the 2nd half of games that are already decided. They aren't facing off against the other team's 1st string, they are playing against the opponent's 2nd string. Freshman are generally not the ones getting playing time. They are quite frequently sophomores. They aren't throwing kids out there haphazardly risking their safety. This is simply a way for less experienced players to hit the field a little early to prepare them for the game. This is very similar to bringing up JV for the playoffs. The only difference is that this occurs during the regular season when both the JV and Varsity have blowouts at halftime. Kids always come first in Salem, it's part of the community's motto.

 

[southbottomU]

In my post above I was not trying to say who would win the 98 Salem vs 2013 Dinwiddie matchup. There is no way of knowing. I was only trying to give folks an overall view of the 98 Salem team and also dispell any notions that Salem 98 was slow or nonathletic. They were not. They were the best defensive team I ever saw.

 

[DinwiddieProud]

One of the benefits of having a winning program is the ability to develop younger players that help keep a program on top. Getting on the field is the goal of every kid that's had his brains beat out since two-a-days in August. In the big picture, earning that chance is their reward for helping the team get prepared to go out and put away the opponent early.

In strong programs like Salem and Dinwiddie, and plenty of others, there is nothing these "subs" will face on Friday nights that is worse than what they face each week in practice. Freshmen included.