I'm 50 years old and have been going to HS games since I was born (my Dad was an AD & coach for 35 years) and I saw something at a Region I championship game that I had never seen before at a high school game - the whitehat was miked and announced penalties just like college and pro whitehats. The only difference was he didn't give numbers. Is this something that we'll be seeing more often? Is there a change in the works to do this for all games? Have a good one!
Officials miked at HS Game on Saturday ...
- Thread starter m-squared
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Given the number of places that mike the referee around the country, I'm amazed it isn't seen more. I've heard there are a couple places in Virginia that do it but I've never been to one. In more than 20 years, I've worked one playoff game many years ago where the referee was miked (I was a linesman in that game) and he was only wired for the radio feed, not the stadium mike.
I think it's like the 25-second field clocks, when one place starts it, a bunch will follow in short order.
I think it's like the 25-second field clocks, when one place starts it, a bunch will follow in short order.
I think 25 second clocks should be mandatory for all high school games.
as for miking the ref, if he doesn't give # of player who committed the infraction, I think the mik is worthless. most folks know the signals and what they are. Just saying "holding" or "blocking in the back", isn't saying much.
as for miking the ref, if he doesn't give # of player who committed the infraction, I think the mik is worthless. most folks know the signals and what they are. Just saying "holding" or "blocking in the back", isn't saying much.
Funny. I think 25-second clocks should be banned.
And if most folks know the signals, why don't they let them work on the PA. I cannot tell you how many times I give a signal to the pressbox and what comes over the PA is NOT what I'm signalling. In some cases, it's not even an actual foul in h.s. football (i.e. offside, illegal procedure).
And if most folks know the signals, why don't they let them work on the PA. I cannot tell you how many times I give a signal to the pressbox and what comes over the PA is NOT what I'm signalling. In some cases, it's not even an actual foul in h.s. football (i.e. offside, illegal procedure).
high school PA announcers are a breed of their own.......with a couple exceptions.
why do you think 25 sec clocks should be banned ? I was at a high school game at Giles County a few weeks ago. that was first one I had seen at a regular season game. The operator did an excellent job, along with the white hat
This post was edited on 11/29 1:58 PM by Hampton Roads 6
why do you think 25 sec clocks should be banned ? I was at a high school game at Giles County a few weeks ago. that was first one I had seen at a regular season game. The operator did an excellent job, along with the white hat
This post was edited on 11/29 1:58 PM by Hampton Roads 6
I have to say that I thought the miked official added a nice touch to the game. Kind of made the game come across as a bigger than normal game which it was - it was a Regional Championship game with two undefeated teams.
I don't really have an opinion on the 25 second clock, but if it's not started when it's supposed to be it could be more trouble than it's worth.
Have a good one!
I don't really have an opinion on the 25 second clock, but if it's not started when it's supposed to be it could be more trouble than it's worth.
Have a good one!
starting clock is easy. when ref blows whistle signaling ball ready fro play, start the clock. I think the 25 second clock is easier to maintain than the game clock. I know of several schools that have trouble with game clock each game.
I worked a game at Giles a couple years ago and it's the only place I've ever worked where they gave the remote starter button to the crew. A lot of new clocks have remote switches, but someone in the pressbox keeps them. At Giles, the back judge has the remote and is responsible for starting and watching the clock each play.
As for why I hate them, the answer is long but I'll give you the short version. There are 3 equally important aspects to calling a game -- rules, mechanics and philosophy. About 1% of fans have any idea about the last one but this falls under philosophy.
Delay of game calls actually delay the game far more than letting a play happen. Officials know when time is critical and if a team is taking advantage of the clock and in those instances, the play clock is a great tool. But for 97% of game time, an offense is going about its business. Once the team is in formation and the ball is going to be snapped and no one of offense or defense is giving any thought to the time, I think the game is better served if we just let the play start.
If a team is jacking around and isn't ready to start the play at 25 seconds, flag em. But once the QB is calling signals and it's going to happen, let it happen. Nothing is gained by shutting it down and walking off 5 yards 1 second before the snap would have happened, and a play clock takes away our ability to let the teams play.
There's more to it than that, but that's the gist.
This post was edited on 11/30 9:42 PM by White hat
Problem I have with play clock is some teams have the QB run to sideline after every play to get next play call from the coach, then he goes back to huddle and gives team the play. This is time consuming and makes game boring in many cases. For some reason, the teams that do this the most are "running teams". If team is not smart enough to use hand/arm signals, then they should send in play by rotating wide receivers on every play. Most are not gonna pass anyway, so just rotate WRs.
If I had the power to make changes to NFHS rules, I'd ban QBs from going to coach to get play.
I took a stop watch once and timed process listed above. On most plays, 35-45 seconds elasped after ball was blown ready for play, before it was snapped.
If I had the power to make changes to NFHS rules, I'd ban QBs from going to coach to get play.
I took a stop watch once and timed process listed above. On most plays, 35-45 seconds elasped after ball was blown ready for play, before it was snapped.
I also think this is ridiculous. As a referee I am not waiting for the QB to return to the huddle to blow the RFP. I want to blow the whistle between 12 and 15 seconds after the last play ended. Even if it was 15 seconds that plus the 25 would be equal to the 40 second clock of NCAA or NFL.
I set a steady tempo and if the team can't run the QB all over the field in that time, they gotta pick it up. 40 seconds is plenty. If they can get it off, then I don't care if they send the QB to pour drinks in the concession stand between downs.
You'd be surprised how much time I spend, especially in July through November, practicing the mental game of doing something for exactly 12 seconds without looking at a watch. The best referees I know all do similar things and I learned from some good ones.
I have seem some stand and watch QB return from conferring with coach before blowing ball ready for play.
Am I reading this correctly, White hat?
I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'm asking for clarification. The way I'm reading this, are you indicating that delay is not always called, even if a team takes too long, as long as things are moving along you just let them play? I just wanted to make certain I got that straight- you are selectively applying the rule, defended by inserting your own philosphy into the mix? I may have totally missed what you were saying, so I'm asking for clarification.
This post was edited on 12/4 9:23 AM by GoMBKMonarchs
I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'm asking for clarification. The way I'm reading this, are you indicating that delay is not always called, even if a team takes too long, as long as things are moving along you just let them play? I just wanted to make certain I got that straight- you are selectively applying the rule, defended by inserting your own philosphy into the mix? I may have totally missed what you were saying, so I'm asking for clarification.
This post was edited on 12/4 9:23 AM by GoMBKMonarchs
Re: Am I reading this correctly, White hat?
A point of emphasis this year in basketball is to call the game as the rules are written and not apply your own ideas or make up your own rules.
A point of emphasis this year in basketball is to call the game as the rules are written and not apply your own ideas or make up your own rules.
Re: Am I reading this correctly, White hat?
I guess that may be why I saw a game Friday with nearly 90 free throw taken by both teams. Boring!
I guess that may be why I saw a game Friday with nearly 90 free throw taken by both teams. Boring!
Re: Am I reading this correctly, White hat?
Yes, and you write that with a tone of incredulousness, but that happens all the time, on every play, in one way or another.
Are you thinking the 25 second clock is black and white? Cut and dry? No judgment there?
It's got lots of room for judgment.
I'm going to bury the lead here and give you the biggest reaason third, but read them all then tell me if you don't agree. if you don't, that's fine. we can still be anonymous semi-detatched internet friends.
Here's why:
1. Let's say you're watching a game. You don't notice anything out of the ordinary when, just as the ball's being snapped the back judge rushes in hard on the whistle, flag high, arms waiving. Is that what you came to see? Did anyone? If that flag wasn't thrown, would there have been an advantage gained by the offense?
2. Tempo is very underrated, even unrecognized by most people. It's very important. If an offense gets in a steady pace the game will run better for BOTH teams. It really doesn't matter if it's casual or a hurry-up, a steady tempo will make a smooth game while there are lots of things can break it. When that's broken by flags, an injury, sometimes a time-out, you'll see dumb fouls happen. Not sayign you don't throw a flag for the sake of tempo, but a DOG flag breaks it, whereas letting a play go when it's really close allows the tempo to be established.
3. Above I mentioned the 12 seconds I want to wait before blowing the ready for play whistle. It's a hard thing to do. Sometimes I get distracted and chop the play in far too quick. So if a team is on a pace where the RFP is blown at 12 seconds after the last whistle, and for some reason the referee blows it at 8 seconds, has the team really taken too long? No, I'm the one who didn't do my job as I have been doing it. Since we don't have a 40 second clock and probably never will, it's still going to be on the shoulders of the R to be consistent and, when I do the same thing during every deadball period, it's fair. But if someone has to ask/tell me something, or anything else happens out of the routine, it can very easily lead to a shortened clock. Should a team that's on the line and ready to go, but they just haven't snapped it when the short clock hits 25 be flagged. I don't think so.
One more thing: Most h.s. games are not very close. If the clock is running and the team with the ball is behind by 15 or more in the second half, they need time more than they need the yardes. If they want to stand there and waste seconds as the time bleeds away, I'm going to let them. (Before someone howls with protest, understand that I've done this for years and it's never once been noticed of a field without a play clock) The team behind doesn't want to waste time so they're not usually dragging around, and the winning team has never had an issue with time getting away.
This post was edited on 12/5 6:30 AM by White hat
Yes, and you write that with a tone of incredulousness, but that happens all the time, on every play, in one way or another.
Are you thinking the 25 second clock is black and white? Cut and dry? No judgment there?
It's got lots of room for judgment.
I'm going to bury the lead here and give you the biggest reaason third, but read them all then tell me if you don't agree. if you don't, that's fine. we can still be anonymous semi-detatched internet friends.
Here's why:
1. Let's say you're watching a game. You don't notice anything out of the ordinary when, just as the ball's being snapped the back judge rushes in hard on the whistle, flag high, arms waiving. Is that what you came to see? Did anyone? If that flag wasn't thrown, would there have been an advantage gained by the offense?
2. Tempo is very underrated, even unrecognized by most people. It's very important. If an offense gets in a steady pace the game will run better for BOTH teams. It really doesn't matter if it's casual or a hurry-up, a steady tempo will make a smooth game while there are lots of things can break it. When that's broken by flags, an injury, sometimes a time-out, you'll see dumb fouls happen. Not sayign you don't throw a flag for the sake of tempo, but a DOG flag breaks it, whereas letting a play go when it's really close allows the tempo to be established.
3. Above I mentioned the 12 seconds I want to wait before blowing the ready for play whistle. It's a hard thing to do. Sometimes I get distracted and chop the play in far too quick. So if a team is on a pace where the RFP is blown at 12 seconds after the last whistle, and for some reason the referee blows it at 8 seconds, has the team really taken too long? No, I'm the one who didn't do my job as I have been doing it. Since we don't have a 40 second clock and probably never will, it's still going to be on the shoulders of the R to be consistent and, when I do the same thing during every deadball period, it's fair. But if someone has to ask/tell me something, or anything else happens out of the routine, it can very easily lead to a shortened clock. Should a team that's on the line and ready to go, but they just haven't snapped it when the short clock hits 25 be flagged. I don't think so.
One more thing: Most h.s. games are not very close. If the clock is running and the team with the ball is behind by 15 or more in the second half, they need time more than they need the yardes. If they want to stand there and waste seconds as the time bleeds away, I'm going to let them. (Before someone howls with protest, understand that I've done this for years and it's never once been noticed of a field without a play clock) The team behind doesn't want to waste time so they're not usually dragging around, and the winning team has never had an issue with time getting away.
This post was edited on 12/5 6:30 AM by White hat
RFP whistle
the rules have to be enforced IAW rule book in this case. Reason being:
there are 3 types of offenses in high school:
1. teams running "hurry up offense"
2. teams running "slow down" offense(where QB goes to coach after play)
3. teams that do neither
By waiting extended period to blow RFP whistle, it can help or hurt a team, depending upon their style. I say when both teams are off the ground and back on their side of ball, and the officials are back at their post, blow RFP.
the rules have to be enforced IAW rule book in this case. Reason being:
there are 3 types of offenses in high school:
1. teams running "hurry up offense"
2. teams running "slow down" offense(where QB goes to coach after play)
3. teams that do neither
By waiting extended period to blow RFP whistle, it can help or hurt a team, depending upon their style. I say when both teams are off the ground and back on their side of ball, and the officials are back at their post, blow RFP.
Re: RFP whistle
Great post White-Hat. There times in these games where common sense comes into play over what is written in a set of rules.
This post was edited on 12/5 8:28 PM by bowlingref
Great post White-Hat. There times in these games where common sense comes into play over what is written in a set of rules.
This post was edited on 12/5 8:28 PM by bowlingref
I am incredulous
Ref's need to stop inflating their importance to the game. You enforce the rules- you don't make them. There is no place where the rule gives you descretion as to the application of the 25 second clock. The only area you control is when the ball is set and the whistle blows. Once that occurs, it's 25 seconds. Don't like it, lobby the people who actually make the rules. It's scary to think that you believe this is appropriate. It fascinates me that you guys get so upset when people take issue with how you do your jobs. Well, this is why. Stop making yourself part of the game and simply enforce the rules. If you don't like the rule, tough. It's the rule- enforce it.
This post was edited on 12/7 7:21 AM by GoMBKMonarchs
Ref's need to stop inflating their importance to the game. You enforce the rules- you don't make them. There is no place where the rule gives you descretion as to the application of the 25 second clock. The only area you control is when the ball is set and the whistle blows. Once that occurs, it's 25 seconds. Don't like it, lobby the people who actually make the rules. It's scary to think that you believe this is appropriate. It fascinates me that you guys get so upset when people take issue with how you do your jobs. Well, this is why. Stop making yourself part of the game and simply enforce the rules. If you don't like the rule, tough. It's the rule- enforce it.
This post was edited on 12/7 7:21 AM by GoMBKMonarchs
Re: I am incredulous
The refs must be pretty important when fans blame the Zebras for a loss. They can lose a game I guess,but they never win one.
The refs must be pretty important when fans blame the Zebras for a loss. They can lose a game I guess,but they never win one.
Re: I am incredulous
MBK, I've read your posts for years and I respect you for them. I'm not going to argua about this because I think you're missing a couple of things that would be obcious if you ever tried to call a game by enforcing all the rules. So let me ask a couple of questions.
Have you ever been to a game where someone shouted "C'mon ref, let'em play!"? Upon hearing that, did you offer a rebuttal that the ref should NOT, but instead should enforce everything?
Do you think fans and players want a game where every rule is enforced to the letter?
Do you know what such a game would look like?
The second problem is that the rule book is not 7,000 pages long. You have to have a philosophy of how to call a game because without it, every single possible situation would have to be spelled out, and the book would be so big it would collapse under its own weight.
I've quoted the celebration penalty on here. It just uses works like "excessive" and "prolonged" but doesn't define them specifically. What I think is excessive, you may not. Personally, I think football is an emotional game and I allow kids to be excited, happy and have a little fun as long as they don't taunt or direct a celebreation toward the opponent. Others disagree and flag chest bumps. The rules don't say a word about chest bumps, so no matter what, when two players chest bump the officials are going to inflate their importance by deciding whether or not to flag that, if I understand you correctly.
There is no place in the rule that gives a referee discretion as to the application of the 25 second clock?
If you know that to be true then quote me the rule.
And find me one high school football coach -- just one -- that would want a delay of game called on the losing team in the second half of a lopsided ballgame.
It's ridiculous to say a referee who let's kids play without strict interpretation of the rules is inflating his importance to the game. I personally seek to de-emphasize my part. I want the kids to determine which team is better on that particular friday night.
MBK, I've read your posts for years and I respect you for them. I'm not going to argua about this because I think you're missing a couple of things that would be obcious if you ever tried to call a game by enforcing all the rules. So let me ask a couple of questions.
Have you ever been to a game where someone shouted "C'mon ref, let'em play!"? Upon hearing that, did you offer a rebuttal that the ref should NOT, but instead should enforce everything?
Do you think fans and players want a game where every rule is enforced to the letter?
Do you know what such a game would look like?
The second problem is that the rule book is not 7,000 pages long. You have to have a philosophy of how to call a game because without it, every single possible situation would have to be spelled out, and the book would be so big it would collapse under its own weight.
I've quoted the celebration penalty on here. It just uses works like "excessive" and "prolonged" but doesn't define them specifically. What I think is excessive, you may not. Personally, I think football is an emotional game and I allow kids to be excited, happy and have a little fun as long as they don't taunt or direct a celebreation toward the opponent. Others disagree and flag chest bumps. The rules don't say a word about chest bumps, so no matter what, when two players chest bump the officials are going to inflate their importance by deciding whether or not to flag that, if I understand you correctly.
There is no place in the rule that gives a referee discretion as to the application of the 25 second clock?
If you know that to be true then quote me the rule.
And find me one high school football coach -- just one -- that would want a delay of game called on the losing team in the second half of a lopsided ballgame.
It's ridiculous to say a referee who let's kids play without strict interpretation of the rules is inflating his importance to the game. I personally seek to de-emphasize my part. I want the kids to determine which team is better on that particular friday night.
Re: I am incredulous
I recall a college women's game I was at a couple years ago. it was somewhat late in 2nd half, and one team had over a 30 point lead. the officials were calling a "touch" foul on every possession, on both ends of court. During a time out I told the refs to "let them play" it's getting late. If looks could kill I'd be dead.
I recall a college women's game I was at a couple years ago. it was somewhat late in 2nd half, and one team had over a 30 point lead. the officials were calling a "touch" foul on every possession, on both ends of court. During a time out I told the refs to "let them play" it's getting late. If looks could kill I'd be dead.
I'm just responding to what the ref said
He said he does not apply the rule as written at all times- he uses descretion. I don't see that the rule allows him to use descretion. What point were you making, bowlingref???
This post was edited on 12/7 10:51 AM by GoMBKMonarchs
He said he does not apply the rule as written at all times- he uses descretion. I don't see that the rule allows him to use descretion. What point were you making, bowlingref???
This post was edited on 12/7 10:51 AM by GoMBKMonarchs
I think you've compared apples and oranges
First, as a coach, I think we both can agree that what gets yelled from the stands is not relevant. If I had a dime for every genious that thought a 13-14 year old team should be running a West Coach offense I'd be rich. I also love the guys who are certain they saw a facemask or holding 150 yards away, but you missed it 5 feet away. That doesn't and shouldn't enter into decision making at all.
You've used descretionary penalties as comparison for those that are not. No matter how hard the powers that be try to define celebration, that is descretionary. "Excessive" and "prolonged" are not specific enough to call it anything but a judgement penalty. As far as the 25 second clock, the rule is pretty simple. Where does it allow descretion once the whistle is blown and the 25 seconds starts? I get that you can take as long as you want to set the ball before you blow the whistle and the clock starts. But, once you've done that, 25 seconds is 25 seconds. There is no descretion.
First, as a coach, I think we both can agree that what gets yelled from the stands is not relevant. If I had a dime for every genious that thought a 13-14 year old team should be running a West Coach offense I'd be rich. I also love the guys who are certain they saw a facemask or holding 150 yards away, but you missed it 5 feet away. That doesn't and shouldn't enter into decision making at all.
You've used descretionary penalties as comparison for those that are not. No matter how hard the powers that be try to define celebration, that is descretionary. "Excessive" and "prolonged" are not specific enough to call it anything but a judgement penalty. As far as the 25 second clock, the rule is pretty simple. Where does it allow descretion once the whistle is blown and the 25 seconds starts? I get that you can take as long as you want to set the ball before you blow the whistle and the clock starts. But, once you've done that, 25 seconds is 25 seconds. There is no descretion.
Re: I think you've compared apples and oranges
But never intentionally delay blowing ball RFP. when dust play is over and both teams have returned to their side of ball, blow whistle
But never intentionally delay blowing ball RFP. when dust play is over and both teams have returned to their side of ball, blow whistle
Re: I think you've compared apples and oranges
@HR, you and I agree on when the RFP needs to be blown in the vast majority of the game. don't wait for a QB summoned to the sideline. Don't wait for a team that can't get its ball on the field and don't let some team screw around half the game.
The only time I hold the RFP, or don't blow it at all, are cases when it's not an issue any more. You know what's never happened? No one has ever noticed or said anything. The teams still get up, huddle, line up and play. No trailing team has ever stood there because there was no whistle and let some crazy amount of time bleed away. So all this fretting is about nothing in the real world.
#MBK, the reason there is discretion is because each and every rule in the book is there to prevent a team from gaining an unfair advantage. When there is no advantage gained, what's the fuss?
Answer this: There is a rule that requires all players to be inside the 9-yard marks after the ready for play whistle. They can go to anyplace close to the sideline after the RFP, but have to be in there at some point. That's pretty black and white -- not much room for interpretation.
But the reason for that rule is to prevent the hide-out play. If we have a play where a team lines up following a time-out with a wideout who never comes inside the numbers but the DB is on him -- no intent to deceive, no trickery. Do we flag that? Not that it matters to the rules, but what if it's a spike play where the ball is out by the sideline, tossed in and team A lines up to clock the ball as soon as the whistle blows and the wideout doesn't come in, again with defense there on him, no intent to deceive. Do you suggest we flag that?
@HR, you and I agree on when the RFP needs to be blown in the vast majority of the game. don't wait for a QB summoned to the sideline. Don't wait for a team that can't get its ball on the field and don't let some team screw around half the game.
The only time I hold the RFP, or don't blow it at all, are cases when it's not an issue any more. You know what's never happened? No one has ever noticed or said anything. The teams still get up, huddle, line up and play. No trailing team has ever stood there because there was no whistle and let some crazy amount of time bleed away. So all this fretting is about nothing in the real world.
#MBK, the reason there is discretion is because each and every rule in the book is there to prevent a team from gaining an unfair advantage. When there is no advantage gained, what's the fuss?
Answer this: There is a rule that requires all players to be inside the 9-yard marks after the ready for play whistle. They can go to anyplace close to the sideline after the RFP, but have to be in there at some point. That's pretty black and white -- not much room for interpretation.
But the reason for that rule is to prevent the hide-out play. If we have a play where a team lines up following a time-out with a wideout who never comes inside the numbers but the DB is on him -- no intent to deceive, no trickery. Do we flag that? Not that it matters to the rules, but what if it's a spike play where the ball is out by the sideline, tossed in and team A lines up to clock the ball as soon as the whistle blows and the wideout doesn't come in, again with defense there on him, no intent to deceive. Do you suggest we flag that?
I suggest you flag those things that are black and white
There simply is no descretion. I get what you are saying, and your specific interpretation and approach is reasonable. But, there is too much inconsistency in quality and approach between ref's to start expecting descretion on those penalties that are black and white. A 25 second time frame from the time the ball is set is black and white. Teams spend a lot of time coaching their kids to do what needs to be done within that time frame. The expectation of the coaches is that you will enforce the rule on them equally and consistently.
Thanks for the discussion, though. I do get where you are coming from. I can't say I agree, at least not with the application of this particular rule. But, I can see that your approach is reasonable none the less.
There simply is no descretion. I get what you are saying, and your specific interpretation and approach is reasonable. But, there is too much inconsistency in quality and approach between ref's to start expecting descretion on those penalties that are black and white. A 25 second time frame from the time the ball is set is black and white. Teams spend a lot of time coaching their kids to do what needs to be done within that time frame. The expectation of the coaches is that you will enforce the rule on them equally and consistently.
Thanks for the discussion, though. I do get where you are coming from. I can't say I agree, at least not with the application of this particular rule. But, I can see that your approach is reasonable none the less.
Re: I suggest you flag those things that are black and white
Do the coaching Monday thru Thursday. Come Friday, call the plays and run them. Perferbably using a no huddle hurry up offense
Do the coaching Monday thru Thursday. Come Friday, call the plays and run them. Perferbably using a no huddle hurry up offense
