Question for 4A North teams

[DEVILSLB99]

LT schedule

We look to play playoff caliber teams and prefer to play 5a and 6a teams. Problem is there are a lot of teams that don't want to play us because we are 4a. I can rattle off a list of schools that shot me down and a lot of 6a were against losing points for playing and possibly losing to a 4a school. Now with all that being said we are having the hardest time finding he caliber of opponent we would like to play. I want to play Stone Bridge, Broad Run, Battlefield, North Stafford, Hylton, and teams like that because they get you ready for playoff football. L.C. Bird has been a tremendous game for both schools in my opinion as we had an absolute battle the last two years on the field. No disrespect to some of these former AA schools that have openings but if I had to choose between a game with any Jefferson District team and Highland Springs I'm taking the HS game in a heartbeat because they get you better prepared for winning a state title win or lose.

 

[VaPrepsRod]

Re: Welcome! And.....what color is the sky in your world?

Originally posted by shauntclair:
Not in your league for overall history but I agree. You must be at this level to win 4A, in my experience.

Using VHSL-Reference.com rankings as a gauge which, while not perfect, gives you a pretty good idea at what the 4A North would have faced had this system been in place since 2000 (assuming all teams are in their current classes).

(North in bold)


2014 - Lake Taylor #3, Salem #17

2013 - Dinwiddie #5, Phoebus #13, Heritage #16, Lake Taylor #26, Sherando #35

2012 - Lake Taylor #1, Phoebus #14, Amherst #22

2011 - Phoebus #5, Lake Taylor #18, Christiansburg #41

2010 - Phoebus #1, Dinwiddie #12, Hanover #15, Norcom #20, Churchland #26, Harrisonburg #28

2009 - Phoebus #1, Lake Taylor #14, Salem #17

2008 - Phoebus #1, Lake Taylor #4, Dinwiddie #16, Chancellor #18

2007 - Phoebus #5, Amherst #12

2006 - Phoebus #2, Deep Creek #14, Lake Taylor #20, Denbigh #24, Amherst #25

2005 - Phoebus #6, Deep Creek #14, Salem #18

2004 - Deep Creek #14, Salem #15

2003 - Monacan #15, Powhatan #20

2002 - Phoebus #2, Nansemond River #21, Deep Creek #23, Booker T. Washington #32, Lake Taylor #37, Monacan #41, Norcom #56, Charlottesville #60

2001 - Phoebus #3, Deep Creek #4, GW-Danville #17


2000 - Heritage #1, Deep Creek #4, Lake Taylor #10, Norcom #11, Dinwiddie #13, Pulaski County #21

Note that in 15 years, the "best" team from the South has been ranked in the single digits 13 times. The "best" of the North has never been higher than 12.

In eleven of the fifteen years, the South has had multiple teams ranked higher than the "best" of the North.

While none of this means that the North can't win the title, it does clearly show that 2013 Dinwiddie and 2014 Lake Taylor are not the exceptions to the rule nor was either some type of special team that only comes around every so often. Each was a great team but, out of the 4A South, I've seen that level of team virtually every single season save for one or two.

The North will win a state title, probably even within the next five years, but it should be clear to everyone what kind of hill that the winner must climb.

 

[cutnjump]

Re: Welcome! And.....what color is the sky in your world?


Very good info. Thanks. Also, nice job on the preseason as compared to postseason Top 10's.

 

[Snookasuperstar]

Re: I think you are spot on - the "old" AAA has been superior to the "old" AA

EXACTLY! It is not like these east teams were not winning when they chose to play up! I recall last year some one from preps or it may have been gilliam but they had said that Dinwiddie was a rare and a specially talented team to come out of the east and now Lake Taylor did the same vs. a Salem team that many from Salem and their own coach have said was one of the best Salem teams ever coached...so what does that say? It won't change any time soon as far as the east putting the beat down on the west any time soon.

 

[VaPrepsRod]

Re: Welcome! And.....what color is the sky in your world?

Originally posted by cutnjump:

Very good info. Thanks. Also, nice job on the preseason as compared to postseason Top 10's.

Thanks! I think that the expansion of our staff in the last two years has really helped us do a better job.

 

[southbottomU]

The gap is not as big as many on this board think that it is. Salem moved the ball on Lake Taylor but did not finish drives. A healthy Fox would have given salem more diversity on offense and would have given salem a better chance of finishing those drives. Not saying salem would have won but a healthy fox would have made them more diverse on offense and better defense----for example he probably would have caught the lake taylor qb on his long run. Also remember that the last lake taylor touchdown was made much easier when salem went for it on on 4th and six deep in their own territory late in the game. Salem was not good enough defensively to beat Lake Taylor but that may not always be true----talent levels go up and down and the next time Salem shows up in the finals it may be with the talent to beat a team like Lake Taylor. Do not predict the future by thinking that all things remain the same forever.
Salem lost the game in a period of a few minutes when they allowed a punt return for a touchdown at the end of the first half and then after stopping Lake Taylor at the beginning of the second half fumbled the ball and Lake taylor threw a long touchdown pass. Those plays allowed the score to go from 14-10 to 28-10 and the game was basically over----up until that time Salem was playing Lake Taylor basically even (had more offensive yards than lake taylor at half time---of course this does include the punt return yardage which was huge)------Don't get me wrong---Lake Taylor was the better team that day and probably most days but the gap is just not as big as the final score and many on this board might portray.

 

[DEVILSLB99]

So can't people say if LT doesn't fumble the ball basically in fg range or turn it over on down 2x in Salem's territory that could have been 14 more points for LT and 3 less for Salem? It works both ways is all I'm saying I would have taken a 1 point win, but there were plays and points left on the field by both teams.

 

[cutnjump]

Just as you left telling yourself the game was closer than the score indicated. Lots of people left there thinking the game was no where near as close as the final score. Rod's post below has some interesting independent info about the history of the North programs compared to the South. The true reality is people will have opinions on both sides of the coin but, until the North actually gets it done on the field it isn't going to matter.

 

[dringtuoti]

The gap was exactly where it should have been. Lake Taylor dominated. Salem had some yards but didn't move the ball consistently. They had a few big runs. That is what you have to do against LT but the problem is teams can't do it consistently. If you can get through the line of scrimmage then you will break off a few long runs. That's great but the problem is if it doesn't happen on 1st or 2nd down then you are left with long 3rd downs the majority of the day - not a recipe for success. LT dominated the game and a healthy Fox wouldn't have mattered on offense when you're getting tackled in the backfield. the passes to the flat were being knocked down at the LOS, and the QB was under duress. 4A North has to come a long way and LT wasn't the only team 4A South that could have or would have beaten Salem on that day. Most teams don't face a lot of bump and run, tight man coverage, and 11 men within 1 to 2 yrds of the LOS - its tough to prepare for b/c it disrupts your timing ad difficult to rep against during the week. Another poster mentioned crossing routes and quick plays and I agree but again that isn't what most teams face week to week and most coaches don't like to change - they always say things like - we are ______, we do what we do.

 

[VaPrepsRod]

Given his record, I have to assume that Coach Magenbauer is a great coach and he knows what he saw out there.

He'll make adjustments to raise the level of his program, no doubt.

 

[southbottomU]

I disagree with some of your contentions but can't imagine I will change your mind about them--just as you will not change my opinion. So I will look for an area of agreement. Bump and run press man coverage is tough to deal with but you need the talent to do it----Salem employed that coverage all season in 98 when they had the personnel to pull it off. Coach Mags has rarely had the db's to do it the last few years.

 

[rainman17]

I won't say Salem or any programs in the state of VA recruit explicitly but there's an undertone of recruiting that goes on in VA and sometimes the best talent makes it way to WINNING programs or programs with more exposure. It's apart of the game, the x's and o's of the games are exactly what they are x's and o's. There's a formula for beating all out pressure but you must have the personnel to hold up upfront long enough for the ball to get out quickly or get down field. Let's face it folks the state of VA is a hotbed for recruiting but majority of the talent rich areas are more urbanized/modern areas. The larger people population versus a larger land mass will easily produce better options for skilled players to complete a roster of 11 versus 5 or 6 with fill the gap talent around them. The top team "true numbers" team of AA football in the 00's probably would've been the back-to-back Amherst teams. People made several claims about them playing up because they were a bigger school but 1400 students or so isn't really a large school in VA. Talent wise they had about 3-7 true division one talents and no all of them were starters that year, some were underclassmen who got in the games because they were blowouts. Talent always comes around in cycles and in the western part this year's Salem team was probably a special crop of kids, they soundly defeated everyone they played minus the one game they lost, when they ran into their buzz-saw. LT was a team that would consistently win 7 games at least out of 10, played versus one another. I believe that the other side of the state east, south, or whatever will keep their traditional values and continue to play up, by numbers Phoebus, LT and other schools were undersized in the old AAA classification but they played who they were given and iron sharpens iron as the old additive goes. For people to come on and question a coach talking about the kids who grind out and don't have a voice on here when the barbs and jabs are thrown shows his character. The coach never belittles players just questions the ADULTS. He gives you football by the numbers and a coach's opinion which normally tends to be brash for a fanatic which most us on this board make up. A lot of people may have played that post on this board but don't coach or see the game deeper than the basics and ups and downs. Arm-chair coaching or spectating is very different than real coaching and playing at high levels. Somebody must break the trend the same way some group of Cavaliers must beat the Hokies. The north will get there because I see some talent and eventually the talent swing pendulum will dawn on the North or Wests side.



When I say true numbers I'm talking about the proposed student enrollment form submitted and viewable online with a little digging.

 

[wikki]

Re: Welcome! And.....what color is the sky in your world?

Just sharing my thoughts on your comments. I agree with you on most of it. Travel for high school teams can be very costly, Amherst has always had one of the toughest 4A schedules, but normally not that far away as Norfolk. They are not afraid to play anyone.This year they had Northside, GW Danville and Lake Taylor in the beginning. Did it make them better, not in my opinion. A schedule like that helps with power points for the playoffs but you have to win a couple of them. Before the last two years, Amherst would win at least of couple of those games. I think it discourages players if they play such a tough schedule and lose those games. Not a good way to start your season. The last two years we played Lake Taylor, the first year Amherst went there and the stands were almost empty on both sides. Amherst had just as many fans as they did, which is sad. This year when they traveled to Amherst, hardly 50 fans if that for LT. I can see your point on travel and playing teams so far away. Not necessary in my opinion. I think a game no more than 2 hours is fine to fill a schedule, but make sure the team is at least a 4A, definitely not a 3A. I also do not think that Salem not playing a tough schedule cost them the State. If they would have played Phoebus during regular season, that would not have made them win the State. Lake Taylor was just better in my opinion than Salem. Next year Amherst and Salem play each other during regular season, which is a good schedule in my opinion. It should draw a huge crowd as always. Posters have to realize at the expense that it cost these teams to travel so far away. Is it necessary?
This post was edited on 12/16 9:54 PM by wikki

 

[VaPrepsRod]

Re: Welcome! And.....what color is the sky in your world?

Originally posted by wikki:
Just sharing my thoughts on your comments. I agree with you on most of it. Travel for high school teams can be very costly, Amherst has always had one of the toughest 4A schedules, but normally not that far away as Norfolk. They are not afraid to play anyone.This year they had Northside, GW Danville and Lake Taylor in the beginning. Did it make them better, not in my opinion. A schedule like that helps with power points for the playoffs but you have to win a couple of them. Before the last two years, Amherst would win at least of couple of those games. I think it discourages players if they play such a tough schedule and lose those games. Not a good way to start your season. The last two years we played Lake Taylor, the first year Amherst went there and the stands were almost empty on both sides. Amherst had just as many fans as they did, which is sad. This year when they traveled to Amherst, hardly 50 fans if that for LT. I can see your point on travel and playing teams so far away. Not necessary in my opinion. I think a game no more than 2 hours is fine to fill a schedule, but make sure the team is at least a 4A, definitely not a 3A. I also do not think that Salem not playing a tough schedule cost them the State. If they would have played Phoebus during regular season, that would not have made them win the State. Lake Taylor was just better in my opinion than Salem. Next year Amherst and Salem play each other during regular season, which is a good schedule in my opinion. It should draw a huge crowd as always. Posters have to realize at the expense that it cost these teams to travel so far away. Is it necessary?
This post was edited on 12/16 9:54 PM by wikki

That is not the argument.

 

[GilliamRatings]

Re: Welcome! And.....what color is the sky in your world?

The 2003 Monacan team didn't even make the playoffs; they were shut out of it at 9-1.

 

[GilliamRatings]

Re: I think you are spot on - the "old" AAA has been superior to the "old" AA

I don't think I would have said they were rare to come out of the East. Rare to come out of the Central Region maybe. We've had some good Div 5 teams in the east, and even a few state championships, but 9 times out of 10 our D6 playoffs were 10-0, 10-, 9-1, 9-1 while our D5 were 8-2, 7-3, 6-4, 6-4. I would still hold that Dinwiddie, was the best team of the size of the former D5's that Richmond had ever seen. Knowing that Phoebus and Hampton had been 5A champs year after year after year, I doubt I would have said that a team of Dinwiddie's caliber was rare for the whole half of the state. Nevertheless, I don't think Dinwiddie was "ordinary" state championship level. I think Dinwiddie was indeed a very special team, and only a few special form Division 5 teams would have played with them; again, just my opinion.

 

[shauntclair]

From the quotes by Mag's, he disagrees with you also. Just saying.

 

[southbottomU]

He did not coach 98 team. He said it was his best team did not talk specifically about secondary.

 

[shauntclair]

I agree with your thought. As some of the numbers have shown, it's only about 10% of teams that are just consistently good. The other 90% would certainly benefit from a less severe schedule than a more difficult one. More wins, more respect and more revenue from playoff appearances.