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This weeks quiz

gymrat10

VaPreps Honorable Mention
Dec 21, 2004
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Thought I'd attempt to start a weekly quiz based on some of the more misunderstood High School basketball rules. This is not necessarily for those of you officials out there (although there are some I've seen this year that clearly need to polish up on the rule book) but more for the average fan (and our buddy HR6) I hear yelling WRONG things at referees during games. This has been talked about before, but let's start with a very simple one:

Is "over the back" a foul? Where do the the words "over the back" appear in the NFHS rule book?

Answers and comments are welcome.
 
yeah excellent question ... you only hear it about 30 times in a game
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The three (so far) of us probably know the answer or correct ruling here. It would be good if the more average fan had/used this site for info.
I will have some increasingly harder, yet commonly misunderstood, rules and situations as we go on.
 
Depends

I'd say, in and of itself, "over the back" doesn't exist. If player "A" has position for the rebound, but play "B" is still able to cleanly get the ball from behind without improperly using his body from behind for position, it's a clean rebound. Unless there's a size disadvantage (I mean a huge size disadvantage), I find it difficult to believe that the player behind didn't make illegal contact if he comes up with the ball if player "A" had position, though. So, I guess what I'm saying is "over the back" isn't a call. But, the scenerio that leads people to yell "over the back" almost always should still be called as a foul because there is usually illegal contact from the player behind who has come over top to get the rebound.
 
Going over someone's back is a completely legal play. You can not penalize some one for being taller or more athletic. Contact while a player goes over someone's back is not necessarily legal. Moving or displacing a player who is in front of you to pursue a rebound IS a foul. That foul is called a Push.
 
I realize you can go over the back

You can't go through them while doing it. If I cleanly reach over you and get the rebound, no foul. If I make illegal contact from behind while reaching over you, I've fouled. It's not the "over the back" componant that makes this a foul- it's the actua contact.
 
HR 6, you can get a rule and case book on your smart phone for $5.99. Go to the app store and type in NFHS.
 
All good comments here and pretty much right on as what I would expect from those of you "regulars". Perhaps some others will wander by before Friday when I will highlight the weeks comments and further any discussion if needed. Having said that, lets talk about officials floor position in viewing or "reffn" this play. For several years now, I believe it has been a point of emphasis, not necessarily in the NFHS book, but more commonly practiced and talked about from local officials association gatherings to the actual pre-game officials meeting in dressing rooms prior to games. The thought process is for the most part in a three man crew that the lead official (the one on the baseline or endline nearest the basket being played at) should almost never make this call, leaving it to the better angle of the two outside guys. Why? Because in most cases if there is contact between these two players it is more than likely in the spot that the underneath official cannot see as he is blocked from view, or "straight-lined" as is often said. To call a foul on a player from this position is a lot of times guessing and the result is a kid having an undeserved foul. In the last few years, officials oncourt rotations have put them further out from under the basket area and a "between player view" sometimes is acceptable especially where he can see without a doubt the player from behind moving (pushing) the player in front in order to be in better position as the ball is coming down off the rebound. Also, I would point out a petpeeve of mine about this play that I sometimes see, not so much now in varsity or college level, but probably with more inexperienced officials at JV or middle school level: The two players are working for rebounding position and the one from behind appears to go "over the back" (there, I'm not afraid to say it) or make some contact with the player in front that has performed a proper box out. The player in front still comes down with a clean rebound eventhough there may have been a bit of contact, but sometimes we have a whistle anyway. Why call a foul here, when no real advantage was gained? Many quality officials will take a look at this play, possibly see the contact, withhold their whistle just a sec to wait on the result and keep playing-no unnecessary stoppage of play and no cheap foul on a kid. Unfortunately it is not always that way. Well, I'm headed out to watch a good game tonight as well as Wed and Thurs...hopefully I won't have anything whacky to report on Friday, then another topic for discussion next Monday.
 
I was at a game last night, and one official was making 95 % of the calls on both ends of the floor, and all over the floor. The other 2 may have forgotten their whistle . it's never good when one ref has to call something on every possession.
 
Remember, just because one official appears not to blow his whistle often, it does not mean he is not intently refereeing every play. Judging a play and deciding it does NOT need a whistle happens many more times throughout a game then the average fan realizes.
 
and added to that ... when one official makes a call and reports he sometimes switches his position among the 3 officials .. thus moving to a different location and possibly having to make another call underneath on one trip down the floor then out front on the other end of the floor
 
Valleyman, the rotation of the offcials is supposed to happen when a foul is called. If you watch even j/v games with two officials thye rotate after calling a foul. Part of the game.
 
Different sport


I heard 2 refs talking other day about a bowl game ref. they said one guy "sewed the yellow flag" to his pants, to insure he would not make any penalty calls.
In basketball, in most games the whistle blows too much. When it takes over 20 minutes to play 3 minutes of play clock time, there is a problem, sometimes it's the officials, sometimes it's just bad teams
 
yes ... I was making the point to HR6 that officials move and sometimes can gain the appearance of making all the calls when in fact it was more a result of a rotation rather than itchy lips
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With HR6 any official that is doing a Va.Tech or Gretna game are totally biased against them. I really enjoy reading post when either if them lose. All the officials nicknames with him are OW. One way against his teams,
 
OK, don't want this thread to turn into a HR6 debate..lord knows I've had some of those...but that won't happen here unless we have a rule misunderstanding/misinterpretation. Having said that, in my view the question of "over the back" as answered by a few of you is basically, like many other basketball situations, a judgement play, while applying basic rule knowledge. Since a foul is defined as (paraphrasing) contact against an opponent that clearly hinders an opponent from performing basic offensive or defensive movements, simply reaching over an opponent from behind the opponent, or outjumping the opponent and grabbing a rebound is not a foul. In refereeing this play, officials are taught to look for an unfair advantage gained, in most cases by the player from behind. Does he make illegal contact, does he displace the opponent either by pushing him forward on the jumping motion so that he "overruns" the ball, or holding him inside so that his jump is mistimed (a good old timers move most high schoolers have not as yet picked up), does he make clear contact on the opponents arm as the opponent is reaching for or in the process of securing the ball? These are some, NOT ALL, types of contact seen on these plays. Also, with one eye on the players, an official should have a keen sense of the flight of the rebound, where it will come down, the players position in relation to the flight of the ball, is one player more "entitled" to it by position than another. In officials sanctums, this is sometimes described as "having a good feel for the game". While unusual, sometimes the player with inside position can actually be called for the foul, a play that drives the average fan (and some coaches) a little crazy. This happens occasionally, but certainly not only, on a longer rebound, one that in the officials view was coming down more towards the player that is being properly blocked out. As the ball comes into his space above him, his opponent contacts him illegally from the front side and we have a whistle. Some of these cases can look a lot like over the back contact, but the player with the better position in relation to the ball has to be allowed to reach for the ball. Sometimes there is contact on rebounds...sometimes a lot. Doesn't mean it has to be a foul everytime, if in the referees judgement it was not illegal contact that disadvantaged one player or either team. All of these are things officials are trained to watch for and happen many times a game in a matter of a few seconds...on top of all the other stuff that goes on in a mere 32 minutes..oh yeah, that I know of, the words "over the back" do NOT appear in the NFHS book.
Those of you that are reading this and may not be officials, next time you watch a game and you see one of these calls, look for the players position, ball flight, and the officials position and give 'em the benefit of the doubt. They know the rule and are attempting split second decisions, most of which are made from far different positioning or angles than those in the stands have.
OK I hope everyone agrees (at least somewhat) with my opinion here and that's really all it is...I'm certainly no expert, just love the game, spend a lot of time around it, pride myself on attempting to keep up with the rules, and enjoy proper discussion and debate. Hope everyone enjoys this weekends games, has safe travels to and from, and injury free contests. If anyone has some weird plays/rules to discuss, let's talk about it Monday. I may have next week's subject already in mind...
 
What I look for in the on the back call is the player with inside position ,if their body or head makes a quick movement that is not natural.Most of the time it is a pretty easy call. The pushing foul last Sunday night on James Michael MaCadoo from UNC for pushing off on a rebound was an easy call. Roy W. did not think much of the call though.
This post was edited on 1/13 3:29 PM by bowlingref
 
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