It seems like a lot of people are in favor of going back to 3 divisions instead of the 4 we currently have, so I guess my question is: Anybody know if they are planning on going back to 3?
Three Divisions?
- Thread starter Keith_Stone33
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My understanding is that they will stay with 4 divisions in football for at least another 2-year cycle starting in 2016 season.
To answer mppalmer's concern, going back to three divisions would not involve just merging D-IV and D-III and leaving D-II and D-I as they are. I think there would still be good competition in that lower division.
Keeping the number of teams in each division even, the new D-III would probably be the current D-IV plus Covenant, Isle of Wight, and Portsmouth Christian. The new D-II would probably be all the rest of current D-III and all of current D-II except Potomac, Bishop Sullivan, and Trinity Episcopal (who would all move to D-I). Those are just guesstimates, but my only point is I don't think the smallest schools would be out of it. The bottom half of the lower division has produced great championship-caliber teams over the years: especially Broadwater and Blessed Sacrament-Huguenot.
Keeping the number of teams in each division even, the new D-III would probably be the current D-IV plus Covenant, Isle of Wight, and Portsmouth Christian. The new D-II would probably be all the rest of current D-III and all of current D-II except Potomac, Bishop Sullivan, and Trinity Episcopal (who would all move to D-I). Those are just guesstimates, but my only point is I don't think the smallest schools would be out of it. The bottom half of the lower division has produced great championship-caliber teams over the years: especially Broadwater and Blessed Sacrament-Huguenot.
I believe if we stay with four divisions for another two years, all of the cutoffs would drop so that more teams would be in D2 (currently only 8). Somebody who has the time to look at the enrollment numbers, correct me if I am wrong but I think D4 would be 95 or so and under. D3 would run up to the mid 130's and D2 runs up to the STAB line. Of course we know in all scenarios, STAB is always the largest school in their division… That was a joke. There is usually a big gap between STAB and the next largest school. No conspiracy.
I think Covenant pretty large these days and don't see them playing D4 in any scenario. A point to emphasize your contention that lower schools are not necessarily out of it, I remember D3 championship team of four years ago that lost by 10 to LCA at LCA and lost by a touchdown at Blessed Sac. That was the biggest private school in the state and a smaller D4 team. Still have to lace them up.
I just don't see any way that the D4 teams could compete on a consistent basis with teams with much larger enrollments. I think there's only ten or eleven D4 schools in the state that play football in VISAA, and their enrollments range from the low 40s (for male students), to 94 boys, which is the D4 cutoff. That's already a huge difference when considering schools like Kentson Forest, Brunswick, and a few others who are at the lower end of that number to the bigger schools in D4 like Fuqua, IWA, and Roanoke Catholic. Those guys top out in the high 70s or 80s if I remember correctly. So, there's already a huge disparity in D4 itself, and if those schools are placed in a division with schools with even larger enrollments, I just don't see how they could ever compete on a consistent basis. Sure, you might have a team like Blessed Sac from several years ago, or Catholic, or Fuqua who has one great year every now and then and can compete with larger schools, but for the most part, year in and year out those D4 schools would never stand a chance.
Covenant and Portsmouth Christian are the same size as Isle of Wight-- barring a drastic change for any of them, those three will have to go together, however the divisions shake out. They'll probably either be the largest schools in D-III with three divisions or the smallest schools in D-III with four divisions-- I agree there is no way they will be in D-IV if we stay with four divisions.
Of those three (Covenant, IWA, PCS), I would say Isle of Wight is the most consistently competitive, but even they have had years where they had trouble with Broadwater (the second-smallest playoff-eligible school in D-IV). Broadwater beat Isle of Wight by five touchdowns and went toe-to-toe with eventual D-III champion VES in Lynchburg in 2013. Does Broadwater have that kind of enrollment-defying year every year? Of course not. No one does. But it can happen.
The top-enrollment team in a division will always be significantly larger than the bottom-enrollment team in a division-- the only way to fix that is to create even MORE divisions, which I think we all agree is not the way forward.
Look at the other extreme in Division I. The two highest-enrollment teams (Paul VI and Bishop O'Connell) have combined to win four games this season. O'Connell has over 70 more boys than PVI, who has over 100 more boys than Woodberry, the next largest school, who has over 30 more boys than St. John Paul the Great, the next largest school. That's a 200-student gap between your #1 enrollment school and your #4 enrollment school in that division. The lowest-enrollment team in Division I (Episcopal HS) has less than half the number of boys that Bishop O'Connell OR Paul VI does, but if all schools were in the points system, EHS would have the #2 seed in the D-I playoffs (Woodberry would have #1)-- both of those schools are already calling "The Game" this year's "actual" Division I state championship game, and it actually looks to be competitive, despite the 170-student enrollment gap between the two schools.
Will Broadwater be a perennial contender in a hypothetical Division III that includes Covenant, Portsmouth Christian, Isle of Wight, and North Cross? Probably not-- I get that. My only point was that enrollment isn't everything. A lot's been said about the coaching staff at North Cross and how well they work with the kids they get to allow them to compete consistently despite being 30 boys smaller than some D-III schools. Other schools benefit from having successful JV programs or solid feeder schools from the middle school level. Some teams use home-school kids and make their "enrollment" a completely irrelevant factor. Enrollment is a useful tool on which to base our divisions, but belly-aching about the gap between the top and bottom of a division enrollment-wise and just assuming that it automatically leads to permanent gaps in competition is one of the things that got us to four divisions, and I haven't heard from many people singing the praises of that outcome.
Of those three (Covenant, IWA, PCS), I would say Isle of Wight is the most consistently competitive, but even they have had years where they had trouble with Broadwater (the second-smallest playoff-eligible school in D-IV). Broadwater beat Isle of Wight by five touchdowns and went toe-to-toe with eventual D-III champion VES in Lynchburg in 2013. Does Broadwater have that kind of enrollment-defying year every year? Of course not. No one does. But it can happen.
The top-enrollment team in a division will always be significantly larger than the bottom-enrollment team in a division-- the only way to fix that is to create even MORE divisions, which I think we all agree is not the way forward.
Look at the other extreme in Division I. The two highest-enrollment teams (Paul VI and Bishop O'Connell) have combined to win four games this season. O'Connell has over 70 more boys than PVI, who has over 100 more boys than Woodberry, the next largest school, who has over 30 more boys than St. John Paul the Great, the next largest school. That's a 200-student gap between your #1 enrollment school and your #4 enrollment school in that division. The lowest-enrollment team in Division I (Episcopal HS) has less than half the number of boys that Bishop O'Connell OR Paul VI does, but if all schools were in the points system, EHS would have the #2 seed in the D-I playoffs (Woodberry would have #1)-- both of those schools are already calling "The Game" this year's "actual" Division I state championship game, and it actually looks to be competitive, despite the 170-student enrollment gap between the two schools.
Will Broadwater be a perennial contender in a hypothetical Division III that includes Covenant, Portsmouth Christian, Isle of Wight, and North Cross? Probably not-- I get that. My only point was that enrollment isn't everything. A lot's been said about the coaching staff at North Cross and how well they work with the kids they get to allow them to compete consistently despite being 30 boys smaller than some D-III schools. Other schools benefit from having successful JV programs or solid feeder schools from the middle school level. Some teams use home-school kids and make their "enrollment" a completely irrelevant factor. Enrollment is a useful tool on which to base our divisions, but belly-aching about the gap between the top and bottom of a division enrollment-wise and just assuming that it automatically leads to permanent gaps in competition is one of the things that got us to four divisions, and I haven't heard from many people singing the praises of that outcome.
I agree with your assessment and I have a few comments.
The main problem I see is the smaller schools usually do not have the depth to compete for an entire season. The larger schools can survive a few injuries but with the D4 schools it could means having to forfeit games. Players asked to play both offense and defense for an entire season makes it difficult to hold practices and compete the closer you get to playoffs. I mentioned earlier that we have lost schools like Carlisle, Tidewater Academy and Hampton Christian who all dropped football.
Every other VISAA sport you could probably can get away with a team of 15 players or less. Soccer would probably require the most but I think 15 would meet the minimum requirements. I would guess that Soccer being played in the Fall also affects the football numbers.
We will never have a system that will appease everyone. If the enrollments are correct, then people will argue about how a team makes their schedule just to get to the playoffs (Fishburne Academy) and how the VISAA points system needs to be adjusted. If a team plays a tough schedule and does well (Fredericksburg Christian) , then people will complain about the transfers and how it wasn't earned.
The reason I would like to go back to the three divisions is because half the teams in D2 make the playoffs (4 of 8) and roughly half the teams make it in D4 (4 of 9) which I feel is too many.
I agree. Football is the last sport that needs four divisions. If the state really wanted to try to be fair, the one sport that would call for four division is basketball. You only need 5 on a basketball team. And looking at the divisions in basketball, it is really crazy to think that DI and DII have about 20-25 schools each and DIII has about 50. Split DIII up into two divisions for basketball, but football seems more natural at three divisions.
Well, then let the top three divisions consolidate somewhat and leave D4 alone. The D4 schools certainly aren't the ones hemming and hawing to go back to three divisions. I think once you get to the much larger schools with enrollments in the hundreds of male students, the impact in enrollment doesn't matter nearly as much. Where it matters, and hurts the most, is for the schools and kids in D4. A school with 43 boys (Kenston Forest) will consistently have an extremely tough time competing against a school like Covenant (130 boys or so). That's a huge difference when it comes to those really small schools because they're barely able to field football rosters some years as it is. And to then have to go up against schools that have nearly 100 more male athletes to choose from, in a very physical sport like football - I just don't see that being a good thing or something the D4 schools would want. For perspective, just look at what a larger-than-everyone-else enrollment and a few transfers did for IWA this year. They are pounding every D4 school they play - no one's come close.
Regarding North Cross - they currently have 98 boys in the cycle going forward - and the cutoff for D4 is 94 boys. So North Cross is playing right where they should be - in Division III. I think it's great that they are able to get so much out of a smaller roster and kudos to the coaching staff for that. On the other hand, how many state title games have they been to under the new coaching regime? Have they won any titles? I get that it's a great thing to "play up" and all, but when you don't have any hardware to show for it, is it worth it? Are you perhaps taking some success away from your kids by electing to play up with such a small roster? I don't have all the answers. Just questions to think about....
I'm a fan of the 4 divisions. I think the same deal you get with someone with 43 male enrolees playing a team of 105 is similar to a team of 115 playing a team of 210. Less noticeable at 1st but depth is an issue and quality of depth. I think the D4 group as we speak is appropriate. Some will move up next cycle. D-3 similar. NSA moving down "early" ruffled feathers but we have a lot of "similar schools" as far as size and depth for the most part. D2 is smaller this year in number but very competitive.
As far as 4 of 9 teams in, I don't see the difference when it comes to the public schools. Not sure what the percentage is that makes it, but after looking at sampling of lower seeds making it in to the 1-6A playoffs 9 of the 16 teams that made it in are below .500, i.e. 2-8 Petersburg, 3-7 Colonial Beach, 3-7 Hidden Valley, etc. Private schools have 16 of 41 teams in their playoffs or roughly 40%. But only 1 team, Bishop Sullivan, has a losing record 4-5 and Covenant is the lone 500 team at 5-5. Not always the case I know but just food for thought. I don't have a problem with everyone being in and eliminating from there. lets just make sure the best team is crowned champion in whatever divisions there are.
As far as 4 of 9 teams in, I don't see the difference when it comes to the public schools. Not sure what the percentage is that makes it, but after looking at sampling of lower seeds making it in to the 1-6A playoffs 9 of the 16 teams that made it in are below .500, i.e. 2-8 Petersburg, 3-7 Colonial Beach, 3-7 Hidden Valley, etc. Private schools have 16 of 41 teams in their playoffs or roughly 40%. But only 1 team, Bishop Sullivan, has a losing record 4-5 and Covenant is the lone 500 team at 5-5. Not always the case I know but just food for thought. I don't have a problem with everyone being in and eliminating from there. lets just make sure the best team is crowned champion in whatever divisions there are.
There is a big difference with the public schools. All the teams in the VISAA playoffs are already in the State Semi-finals or one game from playing in a state championship game. The under .500 public teams you listed would have to WIN three playoff games just to reach the state Semi-finals.
I don't think you will any of the Top 4 teams in each public school class will have anything close to having a losing record.
I think D4 would largely remain unaffected if collapsed to three divisions. It is a competitive division and once IOW moves up, D4 is a great new D3. Covenant does not have 130 boys but still is so far from the current D4 cutoff that there is no chance they will be playing smaller schools. Not to mention they are in the Old Dominion Football Conference and play D2 and big D3 teams all season long. North Cross is officially D3 and will no longer be playing up.
Regarding North Cross, they have made the D3 playoffs six times in the last seven years, reaching the D3 championship game three times, and winning one championship over a Norfolk Christian team with four UVa recruits. They compete to win. They have had winning seasons every year and even the year they did not make the playoffs, they beat a playoff bound Norfolk Christian team by fifty on the road to finish 6-4. They like the hardware but the challenge is what they are about. No other reason a team would travel to Charlotte Latin for an opening Friday night road game with a roster of 17 that included 7 freshmen. They lost but played tough.
Will, I'm not in disagreement but it's a smaller pool, that's where I was trying to make the comparison was in the total numbers. probably more like apples and oranges but it was worth a shot. Honestly, its more like the Conference/ District format at the public school level. So a 4th place team in a district may be 5-5, 4-6. The biggest difference, Public schools HAVE to play their district.
Well if D4 would remain largely unaffected if it becomes the new D3, then I think all current D4 schools would be okay with the shift in divisions. IF that's what actually happens... Also, I'm pretty sure Covenant had close to 130 males just up to a year or two ago - maybe their enrollment has dropped a bit..
And my question regarding North Cross was about their "new regime." Are the championship appearances and one title win in the last 7 years under their current coach, or the former coach?
I certainly get the idea of a challenge and playing up, and North Cross does it very well, year in and year out. Just what they've been able to accomplish this year with all the injuries is amazing - a testament to great coaching. But again, I have to think I if I'm a player at NC, and I just finished my senior year, and we played well all four years and made the playoffs but never got a ring while playing a division up...I might think to myself that I wish the decision had been made to allow us to play in our rightful division where I almost certainly would have won a ring during my high school career.
And my question regarding North Cross was about their "new regime." Are the championship appearances and one title win in the last 7 years under their current coach, or the former coach?
I certainly get the idea of a challenge and playing up, and North Cross does it very well, year in and year out. Just what they've been able to accomplish this year with all the injuries is amazing - a testament to great coaching. But again, I have to think I if I'm a player at NC, and I just finished my senior year, and we played well all four years and made the playoffs but never got a ring while playing a division up...I might think to myself that I wish the decision had been made to allow us to play in our rightful division where I almost certainly would have won a ring during my high school career.
Same coaching staff which is part of their success. And I am sure there are some wistful moments for rings particularly when cross town rival won D4 and will not play them. Another thing on the depth issue for smaller schools... When you have two way starters, one injury affects two starting positions.
Ahh. Okay. I didn't realize that the same staff had been in place for 7 years. Was thinking the current staff had only been there 3-4 years. My mistake. But....regarding success. Didn't the previous coach win at least one title...maybe two or three titles in football? And he was only there for a handful of years? My NC football history is hazy...
And we've been down the NC/RC potential for a game already. Don't think it's gonna happen. Not really sure what RC's ring has to do with NC's players lack of of ring or the two teams not playing each other... Heck, that rivalry's been too salty for decades and ratcheted up even more with Muscaro's pathetic and classless "blind squirrel" comment in the local media regarding RCS winning a title back in 94'. It gets to a point where it would seem that there's almost too much emotion for players, coaches, and fans when it comes to that game. Would love to know the history of the last three or four years that they played each other and what the scores and outcomes of each game was.
Six years then, and five playoff runs. Three championship appearances and one championship. Past NC coach is a big reason why RC will not play NC. Many players not representative of the school, not college appropriate, one and dones, senior transfers, lots of financial aid, and running up the score mercilessly. A bunch of great kids as well but overall, a tough time for North Cross football. Coach A not dealing from that same deck as administration laid done expectations. They are still trying to rebuild relationships with schools like Catholic and Fishburne.
Catholic's ring was a great story. My only point on that one was their championship had to make North Cross players think as you said about what would have happened if they played D4 the last four years.
Would love to hear some stories from the nineties with Muscaro. Before my time but I think the headmasters at Catholic and North Cross seem to understand high school rivalries. The two schools could probably control their coaches and students. I have seen it work in Baltimore between Gilman and McDonough. They actually have football players go to the either school to meet with the student bodies to talk about the rivalry and how good it is.
Catholic's ring was a great story. My only point on that one was their championship had to make North Cross players think as you said about what would have happened if they played D4 the last four years.
Would love to hear some stories from the nineties with Muscaro. Before my time but I think the headmasters at Catholic and North Cross seem to understand high school rivalries. The two schools could probably control their coaches and students. I have seen it work in Baltimore between Gilman and McDonough. They actually have football players go to the either school to meet with the student bodies to talk about the rivalry and how good it is.
Ah. Gotcha. Because Coach A seems like a great guy/coach, and doesn't seem like the type to run up the score. So it was the previous coach at NC who did all of that. That makes more sense.
And I agree, both RC and NC have headmasters that understand high school rivalries. Maybe a NC/RC game could be made to happen. Who knows. Who knows...old feelings die hard.
And I'd love to share some Muscaro stories from the 90s. I have lots of them. But this probably isn't the appropriate forum.
Crackaz, I agree with you 100% on the 4 Divisions...............I have been coaching for 10 years at Bishop Sullivan and I remember when we had 3 divisions and how tough it was to even try earning a spot in the playoff bracket and knowing even if we did make it would be almost impossible to beat a Benedictine or LCA for the state title based on the talent pool they pulled from which is far different than ours. The 4 Divisions allow most private schools the opportunity to at least now vie for a state championship and an even greater chance of making it to the playoffs within their own Division. It's about promoting competition within the private school ranks and allowing our kids the opportunity to succeed in obtaining a playoff birth or a state title game. I have no say in what happen in two years but if I had the to vote from a coaches perspective I would keep it at 2 Divisions. The real issue that we aren't talking about here is now that LCA opened up the gates for private schools to play within the VHSL structure, how many private schools are going to move to the VHSL so they can play local schools?
^^^Glad someone from Catholic chimed in^^^ As far as Bishop Sullivan's plan for next year, maybe you can spread set the record straight. I have heard talk that negotiations are in the works to bring over Coach Scott from Ocean Lakes to run the Bishop Sullivan football program. If the financial terms can be agreed upon, Coach Scott will be the head coach and the school/booster club/alumni will provide tuition for 10-12 football players to be able to attend Bishop Sullivan for football, per his request. At Sullivan, he will be able to do the things he is getting suspended for at Ocean Lakes without suffering any repercussions. Any truth to this talk?? Seems like a perfect fit for his coaching style. Also heard that if this change takes place Bishop Sullivan will move up to play at Division 1 level and leave the TCIS conference. Set the record straight if you can catholicfootball101.
Sorry it took me so long to get back to your question but after the season my schedule gets really busy. I have heard about these rumors too and I have spoken to several coaches and staff personnel (but not the AD as that who Chris would have to meet with for this discussion to occur nor have I called Chris to validate these rumors) and as far as they are concerned it is exactly what you stated a "rumor". Catholic Football is not in the business of recruiting talent for its football program, if young men and women want to attend Catholic they need to pass the entrance exam and have a passion for academics then it is usually is a great fit for both the school and student. As far as your comments for moving up to Division 1 and leaving the TCIS, I think that too is a little far fetched as we are driven by the requirements of the VISAA (based on male population size) and we currently qualify in Division 2 so I am sure we will move up or down based on that metric not based on somebody's lone decision. As for the TCIS discussion I know that rumor has been around for awhile but in my direct interaction with the Principal he stated that he wants "BSCHS to remain competitive within the TCIS". But I do know that alumni are now talking about what if BSCHS went the public school route like Liberty Christian. To me that would be an interesting discussion and I am sure it would only be for football. So to find any of the truth here you would need to contact the AD, Chris Scott or the Principal at BSCHS........
