4A West Playoff Format Discussion

[one man]

One Man, I'm with VA Preps Rod on this one, who are you mad at?

Here's the thing, I'm not sure what your AD is telling you, but the vote was not done in Roanoke. The meeting was not called four days prior. The ADs of last year's 13-16 were in favor of the change, not wanting to pay $5000 just for transportation to a playoff game after limping into the playoffs, knowing the region was not going to be able to reimburse all of the travel. I know all of this because I was there, I voted, I sat in the conference room at the CHARLOTTESVILLE VHSL office and voted.

I know Virginia Preps gives everyone a chance to speak their mind, that's fine and dandy, but get your facts straight and stop bashing people that do a job so that we have something to talk about on here.

If you want to make a change, apply for the AD job at Charlottesville HS next time it opens up.

I'd say I'm discontent at all 3 entities at this point. VHSL, regional powers that be and my AD. I've clearly been misinformed by more than one person if what you say here is true. At the same time I've got the right to question and spew my opinion, even if it is a misinformed opinion.

Now, since you were there lets hear how many reps were present and how did the vote actually come out, numbers wise? Since your clearly a person of importance within our region, is there a place I can read the minutes from the meeting? Where do you get $5000 dollars for transportation? Two buses, that your school division should own, paying two drivers and gas 2x. Again I'm just a coach, a young one at that. Your clearly in a more prominent role and know more about this whole situation than I. Fill me in please. I've been looking for clarity this entire time and since VHSL isn't running each region, my AD didn't keep it 100 with me, I'm not sure who to cry to. Since I'm clearly in no position to change this in the foreseeable future, I chose to bring to message board for discussion.

PS...I apologize for anyones feelings that were hurt in my message. Probably should not have called out Salem, don't think I bashed anyone else but them and VHSL. JustAFan96 you have the juice though, spill the beans on the details of the meeting and vote. How much notice did you get about the meeting? Which ADs called for the meeting in the first place? What school do you rep? Things of that nature.

 

[justAfan96]

Definitely not someone of importance, gave up that position to get more time with my family.

When was the last time you put a varsity football team on two school buses(sp?) with gear and equipment and rode for 4 hours? It is not something most if not all coaches want to do. Now how about your cheerleaders? Are you going to put them on a school bus to save money while your football team rode on charter buses? Sounds like a Title IX violation to me...

This was a regularly scheduled, quarterly meeting of the region ADs. I don't remember the number present, at the time we had 28 4A North schools.

I don't have the juice, I never want the juice. I just know the tough decisions each AD must make, they think about what is best for their school. And this is a democracy, sometimes you do get out voted. You can still go on record voting against something because it is not best for your school.

We have so many things in the VHSL, with so many schools spread out, that we have a hard time finding a solution that appeases all. They do the best they can for their school.

But you are right, this is a forum to discuss opinions, that's the great thing about America!!

 

[one man]

Definitely not someone of importance, gave up that position to get more time with my family.

When was the last time you put a varsity football team on two school buses(sp?) with gear and equipment and rode for 4 hours? It is not something most if not all coaches want to do. Now how about your cheerleaders? Are you going to put them on a school bus to save money while your football team rode on charter buses? Sounds like a Title IX violation to me...

This was a regularly scheduled, quarterly meeting of the region ADs. I don't remember the number present, at the time we had 28 4A North schools.

I don't have the juice, I never want the juice. I just know the tough decisions each AD must make, they think about what is best for their school. And this is a democracy, sometimes you do get out voted. You can still go on record voting against something because it is not best for your school.

We have so many things in the VHSL, with so many schools spread out, that we have a hard time finding a solution that appeases all. They do the best they can for their school.

But you are right, this is a forum to discuss opinions, that's the great thing about America!!

I don't speak for all coaches but I'd bet money, any coach worth their hind parts is a competitor and passionate about the game. I don't think any coach with those two qualities is going to say no to a playoff game, don't care how far the drive or who the opponent. If you show me a coach who says no to playoff game because of travel or who the opponent is, I'll show you a coach whose in the wrong field.

Every friday night we ride on two school buses with players and equipment. Cheerleaders ride a seperate school bus. Our longest trip this year was around 3 hours to Loudoun County, Dominion HS...on a school bus. We don't ride charter buses here. If you told my staff we could load up a bus and ride to Lake Taylor for a 1st round game, they'd ask me, "what time are the buses arriving to pick us up?"

You didn't answer many of my questions. What school do you rep? $5000 for travel expenses? What was the final vote? Are there minutes at these meetings, if so how can I access them? When is the next quarterly meeting? Can anyone attend?

I don't doubt ADs do what is best for their schools most of the time. I get that everything revolves around money these days. Our kids did multiple fundraisers and we probably raised 5-6K this offseason from Jan-Aug doing different types of things. If 14-17 year olds can raise that much money, imagine what some intelligent, enthusiastic adults could raise over the same time period. Money is an excuse IMO. This HS football thing is about the kids. If your school is short on funds from the school division, get off your rear end and figure out how to make up the difference. That's the problem with our society as is. Before I go off onto another subject, those questions above...

 

[one man]

I'll be honest @one man , I can't even follow this thread anymore.

I can't tell if you are mad at the VHSL, the region, Salem or the AD. My best guess is..... all of them?

Come on Rod, don't give up on me. I've been typing with bad intentions, . It's that tackling drill rubbing off on me the wrong way, . I'll stop bashing and get back to proper discussion.

 

[mike salem]

Come on Rod, don't give up on me. I've been typing with bad intentions, . It's that tackling drill rubbing off on me the wrong way, . I'll stop bashing and get back to proper discussion.

I'm sorry things worked out the way they did oneman. I am glad to find out that there weren't any backroom deals.

 

[1MoreHokie]

Ok Rod, back to this topic after I was finally able to speak with my AD about this meeting. Meeting was announced 4 days prior and the meeting was held, ironically, in Roanoke. I was under the impression it was in Cville but it was actually held in Roanoke. My AD was unable to attend on such short notice and was told he could send his vote in by mail. He never received any paper work about the actual numbers of how the vote turned out. He was told 12 teams won over 16. I find this suspicious. You guys can say what you want but I'm guessing since the meeting was held in Roanoke, Salem played a big role in this whole meeting and how it turned out.

This game is for the kids, point blank and period. People who think the VHSL is broke or hurting financially are nieve. I'd bet most of the LoCo 4As are well off enough to make a long bus ride. I guarantee you ask any coach or AD that is 13-16 seed, would you like to travel 4 hours to play a team who will likely beat you by 35-40 points they are going to be glad to hop on that bus and play that game.

Now my beef is make everything uniform, state shouldn't allow each region to dictate. Very good chance Harrisonburg beats TA this week, they will still be at home with a 7-3 record. Yes I understand they played a very weak schedule and losses were against us, 3A brookville and 2A RE Lee. Not great losses, I get it. Regardless of that though, they won 7 of 10 games and no other team in the state of Virginia with 7 wins will be sitting at home. This grinds my gears to the fullest because it's about those kids. They deserve an opportunity to participate in a playoff game, whether they win or lose by 100.

I'm not bringing this back up for my school or team because we had our chance and didn't make it happen this year. Again as I've said, possibly 7-3 team sitting at home and likely 2 or 3 6-4 teams also sitting at home in 4A West. While we'll have 3 or 4 teams with losing records playing in 3A East. VHSL makes all regions 12 teams or 16 teams then I'll drop the discussion.

Posts like this are the best because it's so adorable to see the eastern part of the state act like they know anything about the west. The western part of the state HATES Salem. I honest to God can't stress that enough. Every team, every fanbase in this area has at best a begrudging respect for Salem and it's usually just out-and-out contempt and hatred. Teams don't bend to Salem's wishes just because of what Salem wants and you certainly would be mistaken if you think having a meeting in Roanoke implies a complicity from other teams in trying to do what Salem wants.

Wake up to the world and understand how things are over here before you go making poor assumptions based on a fat wad of nothing. If the schools in this area could vote to banish Salem to play football in Alaska, they would. They certainly don't exist to hold court in Salem's kingdom.

 

[one man]

Posts like this are the best because it's so adorable to see the eastern part of the state act like they know anything about the west. The western part of the state HATES Salem. I honest to God can't stress that enough. Every team, every fanbase in this area has at best a begrudging respect for Salem and it's usually just out-and-out contempt and hatred. Teams don't bend to Salem's wishes just because of what Salem wants and you certainly would be mistaken if you think having a meeting in Roanoke implies a complicity from other teams in trying to do what Salem wants.

Wake up to the world and understand how things are over here before you go making poor assumptions based on a fat wad of nothing. If the schools in this area could vote to banish Salem to play football in Alaska, they would. They certainly don't exist to hold court in Salem's kingdom.

I certainly rushed to judgement based on information I received from what I though was a reliable source. I certainly feel as though Salem City is a powerful entity in their area though.
Having said that, I also have a premium respect for Salem HS football program and also the City as whole for their passion and love of the game of football. I wish the Charlottesville community had half the respect and passion for this beautiful game and the young men that play it. It's not just wins and losses, it's about 11 men on a field working together to achieve. When a community believes in the values this game can bring to boys becoming men as well as an entire community just coming together for the same reason, it is a beautiful thing. Hopefully if we start winning we can develop that pride around here.

 

[one man]

I'm sorry things worked out the way they did oneman. I am glad to find out that there weren't any backroom deals.

I certainly don't take anything that happens in regional meetings or VHSL meetings personal. I'm not up trying to say the meeting was to purposely leave us out or make our road tougher. I had legit questions about how the meeting was conducted based on what I was told about the meeting from someone who was invited and unable to attend.

I have a legit passion and love for any young man that chooses to play football. I know how much work some of these kids put into trying to be a great football player or team. Even those that aren't the most talented sometimes deserve a chance to participate in the playoffs against the big boys. This is the entire basis behind me bringing this debate. The other things are more my venting and lashing out about my dislike for our format. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm 28 and fully aware that posts on VA preps aren't going to change anything but I also know that discussion and debate can bring about awareness for change.

 

[ucf85]

The meeting was not called four days prior. The vote was held and it is done. The VHSL should take a look at becoming uniformed across the state. How two regions can say we will only take 12 teams and the rest stay at a 16 team format is ridiculous. It is bottom line. It is money. When you are charged $8, $10, $12 for playoff and championship games to watch, it seems the bigger question should be how they account for the $$. If four teams (13, 14, 15, 16) are costing the region $5000 in travel reimbursements, someone needs to look at what is being reimbursed. Gas should be the only thing reimbursed. Someone who knows more on the process can comment in more detail. What does the region do with their money they are saving? Does it go back to the VHSL? Does it get consumed by other sports? Either way, not a good look. Should be uniformed across the state. The VHSL should also have people working on Friday nights crunching numbers to notify teams who they are playing and where by Saturday morning

 

[wikki]

The meeting was not called four days prior. The vote was held and it is done. The VHSL should take a look at becoming uniformed across the state. How two regions can say we will only take 12 teams and the rest stay at a 16 team format is ridiculous. It is bottom line. It is money. When you are charged $8, $10, $12 for playoff and championship games to watch, it seems the bigger question should be how they account for the $$. If four teams (13, 14, 15, 16) are costing the region $5000 in travel reimbursements, someone needs to look at what is being reimbursed. Gas should be the only thing reimbursed. Someone who knows more on the process can comment in more detail. What does the region do with their money they are saving? Does it go back to the VHSL? Does it get consumed by other sports? Either way, not a good look. Should be uniformed across the state. The VHSL should also have people working on Friday nights crunching numbers to notify teams who they are playing and where by Saturday morning

I agree that each should take 16 or 12 be consistent.

 

[DinwiddieProud]

I'm enjoying this. I like the passion from both sides. I do think OneMan, has posed some questions that I wish someone would answer.

Someone reading this knows exactly how, when, and where, the vote was made to change the format. Why the big secret? It's just democracy. When more vote for an idea than against it, that's the way it's going to be. If there was no attempt to unethically pass this change, then why won't someone that supported the change come on here and tell us the process that took place?

OneMan is no more at fault for expressing himself, than someone with detailed knowledge would be at explaining and defending the decision process.

I will admit, I am suspicious. And each of you should be too. Even if you like the format change. I don't care which side you come down on, if those involved have questionably manipulated a process to get even the result that the majority wanted, you should be outraged. If they do it once, it will happen again. And maybe the next decision will be something that YOU believe is detrimental to the game.

 

[dringtuoti]

Yes!!! Make it uniform throughout the state. Side note, if your going to hold a regional vote on the format, make sure each school in the region is represented, not just the football powerhouses or your favorite ADs who will vote as you want them too!!

They each have a vote if they attend their respective meetings. ADs actually don't have the power either unless given proxy by their principals. ADs do vote as a group but from my understanding its the principals that have the final say.

 

[DEVILSLB99]

They each have a vote if they attend their respective meetings. ADs actually don't have the power either unless given proxy by their principals. ADs do vote as a group but from my understanding its the principals that have the final say.

Principals have the final say as to what goes into effect.

 

[one man]

I'm enjoying this. I like the passion from both sides. I do think OneMan, has posed some questions that I wish someone would answer.

Someone reading this knows exactly how, when, and where, the vote was made to change the format. Why the big secret? It's just democracy. When more vote for an idea than against it, that's the way it's going to be. If there was no attempt to unethically pass this change, then why won't someone that supported the change come on here and tell us the process that took place?

OneMan is no more at fault for expressing himself, than someone with detailed knowledge would be at explaining and defending the decision process.

I will admit, I am suspicious. And each of you should be too. Even if you like the format change. I don't care which side you come down on, if those involved have questionably manipulated a process to get even the result that the majority wanted, you should be outraged. If they do it once, it will happen again. And maybe the next decision will be something that YOU believe is detrimental to the game.

Thanks for having my back a bit there DP.

I got more info today. Our principal and AD voted for 16 teams. Was told the vote was very close, still no definitive numbers given or what other schools voted which way.

 

[GilliamRatings]

The thing you all seem to not incorporate into this discussion is that the VHSL has nothing to do with the Regional playoff formats. They classify teams and provide certain ground rules. The Regions run themselves. It is not likely that one attending or non-attending rep would have made much difference in the 4A West Regional configuration decision.

Now, don't get me wrong, I agree with a uniform playoff system for all classifications but there's nothing I can do about it. And unless there is a structural reconfiguration of bylaws, there's nothing the VHSL can do either. The Regions retain their decision making powers for a reason. It helps them feel a balance between the power of the VHSL and their own. In other words, the VHSL cannot dictate EVERYTHING to them. It is also unlikely the Regional reps will vote away any of their current authorities.

I am not sure this is true. As my AD put it. The Regions are begging for guidelines right now and the state won't provide it.

 

[GilliamRatings]

One Man, I'm with VA Preps Rod on this one, who are you mad at?

Here's the thing, I'm not sure what your AD is telling you, but the vote was not done in Roanoke. The meeting was not called four days prior. The ADs of last year's 13-16 were in favor of the change, not wanting to pay $5000 just for transportation to a playoff game after limping into the playoffs, knowing the region was not going to be able to reimburse all of the travel. I know all of this because I was there, I voted, I sat in the conference room at the CHARLOTTESVILLE VHSL office and voted.

I know Virginia Preps gives everyone a chance to speak their mind, that's fine and dandy, but get your facts straight and stop bashing people that do a job so that we have something to talk about on here.

If you want to make a change, apply for the AD job at Charlottesville HS next time it opens up.

If it costs $5000 to take a team to an away football game, somebody is embezzling their butts off. Pay me $4000 and I'll get your team there and back safely and have $3000 for a cruise in Hawaii.

 

[one man]

Here's the thing, I'm not sure what your AD is telling you, but the vote was not done in Roanoke. The meeting was not called four days prior. The ADs of last year's 13-16 were in favor of the change, not wanting to pay $5000 just for transportation to a playoff game after limping into the playoffs, knowing the region was not going to be able to reimburse all of the travel. I know all of this because I was there, I voted, I sat in the conference room at the CHARLOTTESVILLE VHSL office and voted.
.

This was a regularly scheduled, quarterly meeting of the region ADs. I don't remember the number present, at the time we had 28 4A North schools.
!

Maybe I'm digging but I find it unusual that you remember that last years 13-16 seeds all voted for 12 but you don't remember the number of schools present at the meeting. I was told today that our Principal and AD voted for 16 seeds rather than 12, and we were the 16 seed last year. So it appears that you may want to check your facts as well. Not trying to cause problems, just looking for answers.

 

[shauntclair]

Maybe I'm digging but I find it unusual that you remember that last years 13-16 seeds all voted for 12 but you don't remember the number of schools present at the meeting. I was told today that our Principal and AD voted for 16 seeds rather than 12, and we were the 16 seed last year. So it appears that you may want to check your facts as well. Not trying to cause problems, just looking for answers.

Actually, there's one answer here. You asked me what it would take to make me come down to Charlottesville this year. My response was win some games. Doesn't all this become a non-issue if the Black Knights win some games? GL in 2016.

 

[dringtuoti]

Maybe I'm digging but I find it unusual that you remember that last years 13-16 seeds all voted for 12 but you don't remember the number of schools present at the meeting. I was told today that our Principal and AD voted for 16 seeds rather than 12, and we were the 16 seed last year. So it appears that you may want to check your facts as well. Not trying to cause problems, just looking for answers.

Each AD and principal gets a copy of the minutes of each meeting. Those minutes are accepted by vote at the next meeting. Those minutes would also have vote totals in them but might not record exactly which school voted a particular way.

 

[one man]

Actually, there's one answer here. You asked me what it would take to make me come down to Charlottesville this year. My response was win some games. Doesn't all this become a non-issue if the Black Knights win some games? GL in 2016.

This isn't about Charlottesville. We finished 21 or 22 in points. Even with 16 teams we wouldn't be close. Stop trying to turn this into something it isn't.

If you've been following the past few days, the conversation has become about the actual meeting and details of what went on at that meeting. I've gotten a few answers about minutes and things but still no response about how you need $5000 to travel. Can anyone come to those meetings. If you aren't bringing some answers or questions then fall back from the thread.

 

[DinwiddieProud]

If it costs $5000 to take a team to an away football game, somebody is embezzling their butts off. Pay me $4000 and I'll get your team there and back safely and have $3000 for a cruise in Hawaii.

BINGO!!!! The transportation excuse is as hollow as my head.

 

[DinwiddieProud]

Here's my take on the big picture. The VHSL evolved into a secretive organization over the years. Not for underhanded reasons, but because no matter what was said or done, they were bashed by somebody.

Remember, they are charged with an insurmountable task of satisfying schools big and small, inner city and extremely rural, ranging from schools with resources for any and everything they need, to schools that are so underfunded they scramble to pay the light bill.

I'm sure virtually everyone of us has been involved with some organization or another that had to try to satisfy a multitude of people. Whether it be at your church, a hunt club, or something connected to your school like the PTA or school board. Or perhaps you job requires you to form and implement policy changes, or enforce new production methods.

Regardless, you know that no matter what you do, there are people that question or oppose what has been said or done. It's real common, and real easy to try to keep everything on the "down low" so you are not constantly bombarded with questions and criticism.

If you look at the history of the VHSL, that is the culture that has evolved.

As part of that culture, the members that make up the VHSL are typically of the same mindset. How often does a Principal or an AD come back from a meeting, whether it be a district, conference, region, or statewide meeting, and post or announce what was talked about or voted on? Seldom if ever, I suppose. Not because it's an attempt to be sneaky or dishonest, but because they don't want to endure the fallout, especially when virtually no one outside of an inner circle has the real background information about a particular topic. That's just a natural human trait to avoid the inevitable, "that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of"!

But somethings need to be shared.

Especially when it is a significant change, such as this playoff format change. The 4a West region was remiss in not having an agreed upon statement to release, that explained the change and the reasons why the majority voted for the change. Many followers of football in that region would have disagreed, but at least the discussions would have been about the change, not about the appearance of impropriety.

Those of you with access to your AD or Principal need to ask, what was the vote total? What were the arguments for and against? And then make this information known. Especially to your boosters and program supporters. They may not feel like it was the best thing for your school, but at least they will feel comfortable with how the changes came to pass.

 

[one man]

Here's my take on the big picture. The VHSL evolved into a secretive organization over the years. Not for underhanded reasons, but because no matter what was said or done, they were bashed by somebody.

Remember, they are charged with an insurmountable task of satisfying schools big and small, inner city and extremely rural, ranging from schools with resources for any and everything they need, to schools that are so underfunded they scramble to pay the light bill.

I'm sure virtually everyone of us has been involved with some organization or another that had to try to satisfy a multitude of people. Whether it be at your church, a hunt club, or something connected to your school like the PTA or school board. Or perhaps you job requires you to form and implement policy changes, or enforce new production methods.

Regardless, you know that no matter what you do, there are people that question or oppose what has been said or done. It's real common, and real easy to try to keep everything on the "down low" so you are not constantly bombarded with questions and criticism.

If you look at the history of the VHSL, that is the culture that has evolved.

As part of that culture, the members that make up the VHSL are typically of the same mindset. How often does a Principal or an AD come back from a meeting, whether it be a district, conference, region, or statewide meeting, and post or announce what was talked about or voted on? Seldom if ever, I suppose. Not because it's an attempt to be sneaky or dishonest, but because they don't want to endure the fallout, especially when virtually no one outside of an inner circle has the real background information about a particular topic. That's just a natural human trait to avoid the inevitable, "that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of"!

But somethings need to be shared.

Especially when it is a significant change, such as this playoff format change. The 4a West region was remiss in not having an agreed upon statement to release, that explained the change and the reasons why the majority voted for the change. Many followers of football in that region would have disagreed, but at least the discussions would have been about the change, not about the appearance of impropriety.

Those of you with access to your AD or Principal need to ask, what was the vote total? What were the arguments for and against? And then make this information known. Especially to your boosters and program supporters. They may not feel like it was the best thing for your school, but at least they will feel comfortable with how the changes came to pass.

And the grace of that post make mine look savage. Quality use of the keyboard there DP. All I've wanted is some transparency about how the decision was made. Not just we met, we voted, its done. What were key points in the discussion.