What are the specifics? Is grabbing the jersey at the neck the same as grabbing the shoulder pads?
Horse Collar Tackle
- Thread starter DinwiddieProud
- Start date
9-4-3-k: “No player or nonplayer shall… Grab the inside back or side collar, or the name plate area (directly below the back collar), of either the shoulder pads or the jersey of the runner and subsequently pull (backward or sideward) that opponent to the ground (Horse-collar), even if possession is lost.”
Jersey collar/nameplate and shoulder pads collar are both included for this foul.
Jersey collar/nameplate and shoulder pads collar are both included for this foul.
And if they have a pony tail hanging out from behind their helmet, is that a legal means of tackling?
Hair is not protected by rule. Fair game for a tackle.
I know the rules very well, but in most cases when I'm deciding on a foul I look for indicators. For a horse cllar tackle, the indicator is whether the legs are folded back or under the player. The purpose of the rule is to protect the legs from those exact situations. The rule started in the NFL when Terrell Owens had a leg broken by being pulled down backward. A couple later it was added to NCAA, then it made its way to high school a few years ago.
If the runner is pulled backward, the legs tell the story. If they are pulled to the side and back in a way that puts the legs at risk, it's a foul for horse collar. If the player sins or falls to the side such that the legs are not folded, it's not a foul.
FWIW, my indicators to call holding are also the legs and feet. I hear coaches yell to their blockers "Keep your hands inside" and I think "Makes no difference, I'm not looking at the hands."
If the runner is pulled backward, the legs tell the story. If they are pulled to the side and back in a way that puts the legs at risk, it's a foul for horse collar. If the player sins or falls to the side such that the legs are not folded, it's not a foul.
FWIW, my indicators to call holding are also the legs and feet. I hear coaches yell to their blockers "Keep your hands inside" and I think "Makes no difference, I'm not looking at the hands."
You are the football official and I am not, however I'm questioning your application of the rule here. The rule is in place for the safety of the players. If you only call it when someone is in a position to get hurt aren't allowing the play to sometimes happen? Doesn't this lead to inconsistencies? Defender from Team A can grab a nameplate, pull to the side, and be flagged. Defender from Team B can do the exact same thing, but because the runner's legs don't fold the same way it's not a penalty?
2nd question: When you say you are looking at the feet for a holding call, what exactly are you looking for? I'm trying to picture it and I can't.
Good questions and I understand the confusion. Idicators are so named because they indicate a foul. In the case of the HC tackle the foul hasn't happened when the collar or name plate is grabbed, it happens when that grab is followed by pulling the ball carrier to the ground backward or to the side, There's almost no way to do with without causing the legs to fold under him in a way that's at risk for an injury.
It's not that fouls are going unflagged because the legs weren't affected, to the contrary, the effect on the legs is exactly what's going to happen when the foul occurs and that's the way of knowing it. That's the main reason the definition of the horsecollar was amended to include the grabbing of the name plate and not specifically the inside of the jersey. When the HC rule was first added, the hand had to be inside the jersey. A tackle could appear to be a HC foul but was not because the top of the jersey was legally grabbed, but the risk of injury was the same. Officials looking for the indicator would see it, but didn't see the hand inside the jersey and had to allow the risky tackle, or mistakenly throw a flag.
As for holding, consider this. You take two boys and stand them against a wooden telephone pole, facing the pole. Nail one of their shirts to the pole. Now tell them to move aroundd the pole. You don't have to see the nails to know which on has the nails in his shirt. That's a somewhat clunky analogy and no one should be nailing shirts to poles, but it's easy to visualize. Holding works the same way on the field. the feet tell the story. They tell me where the defender inttends to go. If he's not moving in the direction his feet say he wants to go, there must be a reason.
If I see a defender trying to get off a block, I look to the feet to see where he's trying to go. If his body is twisting the other way, or being dragged down, I'll know he's being held. No linebacker ever turns his back to the ball carrier, but if he suddenly spins away from the ball and toward the blocker, I know he's being held. Not sure it's that easy to visualize but when you see it, you understand.
If the defender suddenly loses a step, 99% chance he's being held. Now I have to decide if that step mattered. A defender losing a step as the ball goes past is different from an interior lineman losing a step when the ball is tossed to the boundary.
The corollary of this is when a jersey is grabbed, but there is no restriction and the blocker is just running with the defender, going right where he wants to go, that's never going to be flagged by me. I used to work a team that ran sweeps often. The tackles would come up and grab the defensive linemen's jerseys but they would all just run down the line and the guy with his jersey being held would make the tackle, time and again. You could see a grab, but there was no restriction. Nothing stopped that defender from going exactly where he wanted to go.
It's not that fouls are going unflagged because the legs weren't affected, to the contrary, the effect on the legs is exactly what's going to happen when the foul occurs and that's the way of knowing it. That's the main reason the definition of the horsecollar was amended to include the grabbing of the name plate and not specifically the inside of the jersey. When the HC rule was first added, the hand had to be inside the jersey. A tackle could appear to be a HC foul but was not because the top of the jersey was legally grabbed, but the risk of injury was the same. Officials looking for the indicator would see it, but didn't see the hand inside the jersey and had to allow the risky tackle, or mistakenly throw a flag.
As for holding, consider this. You take two boys and stand them against a wooden telephone pole, facing the pole. Nail one of their shirts to the pole. Now tell them to move aroundd the pole. You don't have to see the nails to know which on has the nails in his shirt. That's a somewhat clunky analogy and no one should be nailing shirts to poles, but it's easy to visualize. Holding works the same way on the field. the feet tell the story. They tell me where the defender inttends to go. If he's not moving in the direction his feet say he wants to go, there must be a reason.
If I see a defender trying to get off a block, I look to the feet to see where he's trying to go. If his body is twisting the other way, or being dragged down, I'll know he's being held. No linebacker ever turns his back to the ball carrier, but if he suddenly spins away from the ball and toward the blocker, I know he's being held. Not sure it's that easy to visualize but when you see it, you understand.
If the defender suddenly loses a step, 99% chance he's being held. Now I have to decide if that step mattered. A defender losing a step as the ball goes past is different from an interior lineman losing a step when the ball is tossed to the boundary.
The corollary of this is when a jersey is grabbed, but there is no restriction and the blocker is just running with the defender, going right where he wants to go, that's never going to be flagged by me. I used to work a team that ran sweeps often. The tackles would come up and grab the defensive linemen's jerseys but they would all just run down the line and the guy with his jersey being held would make the tackle, time and again. You could see a grab, but there was no restriction. Nothing stopped that defender from going exactly where he wanted to go.
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