ADVERTISEMENT

I have a Salem question

Nov 25, 2002
164
143
43
Bear with me and i do not mean to discount the current head coach in anyway as i feel he is gonna be great also, but I just wonder what the concensus would be...let's say you have a bizzaro world where you have a door way that leads to 2 identical Salem stadiums but you could only pick to play on one of them...now here's my question...
One of the teams is coached by Coach Willis White and the other is coached by Coach Magenbaur which team do you suit up for and why, or does it matter as long as Salem is on the front of the jersey?
 
I'll make it simple for you: anyone under 40 might pick Mags, nobody over 40 will. Think Bryant/Saban at Bama.
Your analogy of Bama was exactly what I was thinking 1MoreHokie...I don't have a good way of asking questions my mind is cluttered with useless information but I guess I'm looking for what did each bring to the table for Salem. Not looking for anyone to bash either coach in any way I just think it would be a blessing to have had 2 legendary coaches at the same high school.
 
Your analogy of Bama was exactly what I was thinking 1MoreHokie...I don't have a good way of asking questions my mind is cluttered with useless information but I guess I'm looking for what did each bring to the table for Salem. Not looking for anyone to bash either coach in any way I just think it would be a blessing to have had 2 legendary coaches at the same high school.
Little bit different, in my opinion, and not tied to age. Bryant and Saban is different than Willis and Magenbauer. Saban had to rebuild something that Bryant originally built. Magenbauer had to maintain something that Willis built. Now to the Magenbauer versus Willis debate. Both had remarkable accomplishments. Willis building the machine that is Salem football and Magenbauer being adept enough to blend old and new staffs to keep it going. There is a reason for the saying it is tough to be the guy that follows the guy. I would ask for a connecting doorway.;-) Both guys would be my choice.
 
Little bit different, in my opinion, and not tied to age. Bryant and Saban is different than Willis and Magenbauer. Saban had to rebuild something that Bryant originally built. Magenbauer had to maintain something that Willis built. Now to the Magenbauer versus Willis debate. Both had remarkable accomplishments. Willis building the machine that is Salem football and Magenbauer being adept enough to blend old and new staffs to keep it going. There is a reason for the saying it is tough to be the guy that follows the guy. I would ask for a connecting doorway.;-) Both guys would be my choice.

Think it's entirely tied to age, actually. It's why nostalgia is a thing, people struggle to enjoy things as much when they're older, they assign a value to an experience they already had and every year beyond nostalgia tacks on extra unearned points that make it more difficult for anything that follows to replace it. 30 years ago a guy still had hair and a wife and they were in their prime so when Willis White was doing his thing it made life a little sweeter but now that he can count the hair left on his head on one hand, the wife left him, and his prostate gets him up at 3 AM like clockwork suddenly when Mags is doing his thing it's just not quite as amazing.

I'm not saying the argument for White being better doesn't exist, you can make an incredibly good one actually, I'm just saying the one for Mags is equally as good but due to nostalgia older Salem fans would never pick him. I'd go so far as to say you can poll 100 fans over 40 (maybe push this up a little) and I'd say 95+ will pick White. The metrics for Mags beat out White (% is essentially the same, one more title, much higher quality of opponent in POs) which is why if presented the metrics without explanation I think Mags would garner more votes than White but nostalgia will win out for a lot of fans, it's an intangible that Mags doesn't have yet.

Again, all just for discussion's sake and I'd never begrudge anyone for picking White anyway.

e: I'm not immune to nostalgia either. I think the '98 team is the best ever even though realistically with the way the sport is played now the '15 team most likely handles them.
 
Last edited:
Can someone give Coach Whites record at Salem and Coach Mags. Would be neat to compare.

If you make 98 Salem players 17 and 18 again, and prepare for today's game, they beat Salem 2015. Not their fault they played in 98. Too much depth on Salem 98, 21 different starters. No fall off. Size, speed, toughness, athletes everywhere. Always remember that a large part of 98 football team was the foundation for that years State Champion basketball team . lots and lots of athletes.
 
Think it's entirely tied to age, actually. It's why nostalgia is a thing, people struggle to enjoy things as much when they're older, they assign a value to an experience they already had and every year beyond nostalgia tacks on extra unearned points that make it more difficult for anything that follows to replace it. 30 years ago a guy still had hair and a wife and they were in their prime so when Willis White was doing his thing it made life a little sweeter but now that he can count the hair left on his head on one hand, the wife left him, and his prostate gets him up at 3 AM like clockwork suddenly when Mags is doing his thing it's just not quite as amazing.

I'm not saying the argument for White being better doesn't exist, you can make an incredibly good one actually, I'm just saying the one for Mags is equally as good but due to nostalgia older Salem fans would never pick him. I'd go so far as to say you can poll 100 fans over 40 (maybe push this up a little) and I'd say 95+ will pick White. The metrics for Mags beat out White (% is essentially the same, one more title, much higher quality of opponent in POs) which is why if presented the metrics without explanation I think Mags would garner more votes than White but nostalgia will win out for a lot of fans, it's an intangible that Mags doesn't have yet.

Again, all just for discussion's sake and I'd never begrudge anyone for picking White anyway.

e: I'm not immune to nostalgia either. I think the '98 team is the best ever even though realistically with the way the sport is played now the '15 team most likely handles them.
All fair points and probably accurate given the breakdown. My comment on age was more directed at the tasks each was charged with in terms of appreciating their accomplishments. I think both coaches were uniquely suited for the job they took and would not pick between them, hence the connecting door.
 
Can someone give Coach Whites record at Salem and Coach Mags. Would be neat to compare.

If you make 98 Salem players 17 and 18 again, and prepare for today's game, they beat Salem 2015. Not their fault they played in 98. Too much depth on Salem 98, 21 different starters. No fall off. Size, speed, toughness, athletes everywhere. Always remember that a large part of 98 football team was the foundation for that years State Champion basketball team . lots and lots of athletes.

Not Ruth's fault he played in the dead ball era and Aaron didn't but all things improve, sports is just another thing. If the '15 team played the '98 schedule they'd have doubled the '98 team's output and given up fewer points than they did in '15 (because in modern offenses even bad teams put points on the board). The argument is always the person/team at that point in time against the other person/team in their point in time, otherwise you get anachronistic nonsense.

There's always someone better down the line, that's just how it goes, especially in sports.
 
now if this was an all time Salem MVP , Salem Parks and Rec would get my vote
 
Last edited:
Not Ruth's fault he played in the dead ball era and Aaron didn't but all things improve, sports is just another thing. If the '15 team played the '98 schedule they'd have doubled the '98 team's output and given up fewer points than they did in '15 (because in modern offenses even bad teams put points on the board). The argument is always the person/team at that point in time against the other person/team in their point in time, otherwise you get anachronistic nonsense.

There's always someone better down the line, that's just how it goes, especially in sports.
I disagree with your argument that basically says newer is better. 98 had more athletes more size and more depth. And I almost forgot 98 had a better kicking and punting game (kicking was close but 98 had an excelent senior kicker 15s kicker was a sophomore). Always remember 98 defense gave up 64 points in 14 games. Also, an important point.
Salem lost 17 starters from that 98 team, the entire offensive line, and secondary graduated.
In 99 Salem went 14 0 and won a State Title. Salems depth in 98 was crazy.
 
Last edited:
Coach White 1983-2003: 201-51-3 79% 4 champs.
Coach Magenbaeur 2004-2018: 169-27 86% 5 champs.
 
We just need to keep this simple. Mags played under Willis and after his injury he started learning how to be a coach from some of the best to ever do it. The coaching tree goes back to Gainer at Patrick Henry. There is no wrong answer. I would run through a brick wall for both
 
I disagree with your argument that basically says newer is better. 98 had more athletes more size and more depth. And I almost forgot 98 had a better kicking and punting game (kicking was close but 98 had an excelent senior kicker 15s kicker was a sophomore). Always remember 98 defense gave up 64 points in 14 games. Also, an important point.
Salem lost 17 starters from that 98 team, the entire offensive line, and secondary graduated.
In 99 Salem went 14 0 and won a State Title. Salems depth in 98 was crazy.

I didn't say newer is automatically better, I said newer produces better. Cy Young isn't the greatest pitcher of all-time, there's a reason for that. Joe Montana isn't the greatest QB of all-time, there's a reason for that. This is how progress works.

You're also severely discounting the effect Beckley would have in that game. Beckley's the best QB Salem's ever had and there is a Titantic-sized gap between him and everyone else. Great arm, elite vision as a passer, very often the fastest player on the field on a given Friday (put him in JF's offense and he's a 1500 yard runner easy), tremendous leader. '98 didn't see a QB even remotely approximating what Beckley brought to the team.
 
Last edited:
We are going to have to agree to disagree. I really don't like where this conversation is going. Comparing position to position is not something I really want to do. I will stick with my original premise, 98 was bigger, deeper, and had more athletes. That about covers it.
 
I don't believe I saw that Salem team in 98, and did see the 15 team online.

I think what @1MoreHokie is trying to say is that athleticism as a whole has gotten so much higher that it's hard to compare the 2. Both teams can be stacked, heck if you wanted to say "x was a better running back in 98 than y in 2015", that can be true, but it doesn't mean he was as gifted. And if you placed the 15 team in 98 season that they would have more success because of how things have progressed since then.

But these advances doesn't mean everything @1MoreHokie . Using Ruth or Cy Young or Joe Montana supports your argument, but there are guys like Jim Brown and Nolan Ryan who go against it.

Anyway, I have no clue which coach is better, or which team is better.
 
I don't believe I saw that Salem team in 98, and did see the 15 team online.

I think what @1MoreHokie is trying to say is that athleticism as a whole has gotten so much higher that it's hard to compare the 2. Both teams can be stacked, heck if you wanted to say "x was a better running back in 98 than y in 2015", that can be true, but it doesn't mean he was as gifted. And if you placed the 15 team in 98 season that they would have more success because of how things have progressed since then.

But these advances doesn't mean everything @1MoreHokie . Using Ruth or Cy Young or Joe Montana supports your argument, but there are guys like Jim Brown and Nolan Ryan who go against it.

Anyway, I have no clue which coach is better, or which team is better.

Jim Brown was a freak though, he wouldn't be a freak in the modern game. He was 6'2 and weighed in or around 230lb back in the 60s. If you look at the Steel Curtain of the Steelers in the 70s, that infamous DL, they averaged about 6'3 and 250lb, which meant Jim was about 90% as big as any DL he faced and given even a premium LB like Jack Lambert (6'4 220 lb) he was essentially as big or bigger than every LB and guaranteed bigger than any DB. In modern defenses there is no DL or LB that small, most safeties are in or around that size if not larger and many CBs are that big.

Brown is a modern day FB and would in no way, shape, or form replicate his past success in today's game. The modern game is like a 180 from what it was with Brown, he clearly played in the most optimal time for his talents and it shows. It's not his fault when he played, the game is the game, but he wouldn't be coming into 2019 standing weighing 280 lb and running a 4.5 either, he'd be a big FB and would be used as such.

If you wanted to argue someone, you should use Barry Sanders. Barry was simply ahead of the curve, I don't know how his hands were as a RB but if he could catch the ball Barry would be lethal in the modern game as it's all about getting speedy guys out in space. Imagine Mahomes being able to dump off to Sanders in the flat as a checkdown, it'd be sick.

Also, Ryan is fine, I don't think baseball has made remotely as much of a stride in the advancements of the game as football has in a similar time frame. Ted Williams would still be able to hit well in today's game (not .400 but well) but the physique required for that sport is a tad more forgiving for certain things whereas you cannot transport a player from the 40s in football and expect them to come remotely close to matching up in today's game.
 
Last edited:
Jim Brown was a freak though, he wouldn't be a freak in the modern game. He was 6'2 and weighed in or around 230lb back in the 60s. If you look at the Steel Curtain of the Steelers in the 70s, that infamous DL, they averaged about 6'3 and 250lb, which meant Jim was about 90% as big as any DL he faced and given even a premium LB like Jack Lambert (6'4 220 lb) he was essentially as big or bigger than every LB and guaranteed bigger than any DB. In modern defenses there is no DL or LB that small, most safeties are in or around that size if not larger and many CBs are that big.

Brown is a modern day FB and would in no way, shape, or form replicate his past success in today's game. The modern game is like a 180 from what it was with Brown, he clearly played in the most optimal time for his talents and it shows. It's not his fault when he played, the game is the game, but he wouldn't be coming into 2019 standing weighing 280 lb and running a 4.5 either, he'd be a big FB and would be used as such.

If you wanted to argue someone, you should use Barry Sanders. Barry was simply ahead of the curve, I don't know how his hands were as a RB but if he could catch the ball Barry would be lethal in the modern game as it's all about getting speedy guys out in space. Imagine Mahomes being able to dump off to Sanders in the flat as a checkdown, it'd be sick.

Also, Ryan is fine, I don't think baseball has made remotely as much of a stride in the advancements of the game as football has in a similar time frame. Ted Williams would still be able to hit well in today's game (not .400 but well) but the physique required for that sport is a tad more forgiving for certain things whereas you cannot transport a player from the 40s in football and expect them to come remotely close to matching up in today's game.
Give this some thought for a second. In high school football the biggest change has been the equipment that they wear and coaches try to spread the field out to get the ball to a quick/speedy player in space. Now when we compare errors, we have to give the team from the past all of the advantages of the current teams. Weight room, modern coaching and modern equipment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mvwarrior
Give this some thought for a second. In high school football the biggest change has been the equipment that they wear and coaches try to spread the field out to get the ball to a quick/speedy player in space. Now when we compare errors, we have to give the team from the past all of the advantages of the current teams. Weight room, modern coaching and modern equipment.

This makes a lot of assumptions which don't work out which is why you keep the athletes in their eras. You don't know how one athlete plays in a given time period with a different life, it's just a Pandora's box of "what ifs".

Jim Brown played football exactly when offenses were about nothing but lining up and smashing heads together for 3 yards a pop which is precisely why a RB who is essentially as big or bigger than any defender on the field dominated the game. Even allowing for him to grow bigger he is now still 6'2 240 lb (let's put a limit here otherwise you know he's not going to be some 255 lb RB) and every DL he sees outweighs him by 50-70 lb, every LB he sees is his size if not bigger, safeties are only 20-30 lb lighter. Toughness is one thing Brown surely had in spades and the other was the simple fact that he was bigger than the dudes trying to tackle him. Derrick Henry is a 6'3 240 lb 4.5 running monster of a RB and he is about as effective as anyone else in the league right now because RBs simply don't matter in this era. Maybe Jim Brown would have some untapped ability he didn't need when he played in the 60s that would cause him to replicate his massive success in the modern game or maybe the dude was just freakishly big at the time and that shouldered a lot of the load for him. Reality is part of the reason teams pass more now is because everyone is too damn big to spend 40 plays running against week in, week out, unless you've got 4 RBs you're prepared to chew through. This is also why most RBs have very short careers these days, turns out even when you're 200+ lb you're not meant to get tackled 20+ times a week for 4 months of the year by dudes who can eat your weight in steak every month.

Barry Sanders is a far better example to argue because his skillset was based on speed and elusiveness, two things that transfer to any era of the game. If you are faster and harder to tackle, you're going to be better than most other people but size and power are very era-dependent. Even speed is relative to a point because we know how to teach people to run faster (go check out Olympic 100m times from 20-30 years ago, the gold medalist times wouldn't even qualify for modern Olympics) but stuff like elusiveness and vision is kind of just built into the guy.
 
This makes a lot of assumptions which don't work out which is why you keep the athletes in their eras. You don't know how one athlete plays in a given time period with a different life, it's just a Pandora's box of "what ifs".

Jim Brown played football exactly when offenses were about nothing but lining up and smashing heads together for 3 yards a pop which is precisely why a RB who is essentially as big or bigger than any defender on the field dominated the game. Even allowing for him to grow bigger he is now still 6'2 240 lb (let's put a limit here otherwise you know he's not going to be some 255 lb RB) and every DL he sees outweighs him by 50-70 lb, every LB he sees is his size if not bigger, safeties are only 20-30 lb lighter. Toughness is one thing Brown surely had in spades and the other was the simple fact that he was bigger than the dudes trying to tackle him. Derrick Henry is a 6'3 240 lb 4.5 running monster of a RB and he is about as effective as anyone else in the league right now because RBs simply don't matter in this era. Maybe Jim Brown would have some untapped ability he didn't need when he played in the 60s that would cause him to replicate his massive success in the modern game or maybe the dude was just freakishly big at the time and that shouldered a lot of the load for him. Reality is part of the reason teams pass more now is because everyone is too damn big to spend 40 plays running against week in, week out, unless you've got 4 RBs you're prepared to chew through. This is also why most RBs have very short careers these days, turns out even when you're 200+ lb you're not meant to get tackled 20+ times a week for 4 months of the year by dudes who can eat your weight in steak every month.

Barry Sanders is a far better example to argue because his skillset was based on speed and elusiveness, two things that transfer to any era of the game. If you are faster and harder to tackle, you're going to be better than most other people but size and power are very era-dependent. Even speed is relative to a point because we know how to teach people to run faster (go check out Olympic 100m times from 20-30 years ago, the gold medalist times wouldn't even qualify for modern Olympics) but stuff like elusiveness and vision is kind of just built into the guy.
Good discussion and I believe you are correct with respect to football and the huge physical differences brought on by training advancements. Those differences are obvious in the college and the pro games and in the truly elite programs in high school, however, for a large majority of high schools the differences are not nearly as stark. Teams of earlier times such as Phoebus, Hampton, the 98 Salem squad, and many more would be able to hold their own with programs playing today or in recent years in Virginia, in my opinion.
 
17 years between 98 and 15. The kind of changes you are referring to just aren't there. Last time I was in the Salem weight room two players from the 98 team still held the bench press and dead lift records. Defensive end for Salem 98 won state championship in the intermediate hurdles with a sub 39 seconds time. Linebacker for Salem two time state defensive player of the year. Running back for Salem 98 wins three state championships 96, 98,99 in football and was a key player on the 98-99 State Title basketball team. He is probably the second best athlete to ever attend Salem (Richard Morgan probably first).Plays and starts at linebacker for UVA and the Ravens. Players on the 98 team would excell in other sports, lacrosse, soccer, basketball, tennis, track, baseball. .
One player going both ways and he alternated series with another Defensive player on offense. And of course SIZE. Offensive line including tight end from left to right:
6 7 320, 6 2 250, 6 0 255, 6 1 245, 6 5 305,
6 2 260. No player on that offensive line played defense. That's why Coach White played the style that he did. Great kicking game, awesome defense, and an offensive line that would grind you into submission. Salem wanted to beat you 28 0. Rather than 42 14. 10 Defensive shutouts in 14 games.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VolNation85
Jim Brown was a freak though, he wouldn't be a freak in the modern game. He was 6'2 and weighed in or around 230lb back in the 60s. If you look at the Steel Curtain of the Steelers in the 70s, that infamous DL, they averaged about 6'3 and 250lb, which meant Jim was about 90% as big as any DL he faced and given even a premium LB like Jack Lambert (6'4 220 lb) he was essentially as big or bigger than every LB and guaranteed bigger than any DB. In modern defenses there is no DL or LB that small, most safeties are in or around that size if not larger and many CBs are that big.

Brown is a modern day FB and would in no way, shape, or form replicate his past success in today's game. The modern game is like a 180 from what it was with Brown, he clearly played in the most optimal time for his talents and it shows. It's not his fault when he played, the game is the game, but he wouldn't be coming into 2019 standing weighing 280 lb and running a 4.5 either, he'd be a big FB and would be used as such.

If you wanted to argue someone, you should use Barry Sanders. Barry was simply ahead of the curve, I don't know how his hands were as a RB but if he could catch the ball Barry would be lethal in the modern game as it's all about getting speedy guys out in space. Imagine Mahomes being able to dump off to Sanders in the flat as a checkdown, it'd be sick.

Also, Ryan is fine, I don't think baseball has made remotely as much of a stride in the advancements of the game as football has in a similar time frame. Ted Williams would still be able to hit well in today's game (not .400 but well) but the physique required for that sport is a tad more forgiving for certain things whereas you cannot transport a player from the 40s in football and expect them to come remotely close to matching up in today's game.

I'm not arguing that Jim Brown would do what he did in this era. I'm just saying that using Young/Montana and saying they aren't the best ever, there is a reason. Well many (majority??) consider Brown/Ryan as the best ever, and they are older players.

Barry Sanders isn't really considered that. And even though I don't watch it, but kind of coincides with the White era vs. Going forward is Gretzky. There is absolutely no questions about best ever in that sport, so the advances in everything hasn't closed that gap.

And on Montana, the reason he is no longer considered the greatest doesn't really tie to the advances, as I think he is still considered 2nd best. And it was when Brady passed his championship total that he was considered better
 
This makes a lot of assumptions which don't work out which is why you keep the athletes in their eras. You don't know how one athlete plays in a given time period with a different life, it's just a Pandora's box of "what ifs".

Jim Brown played football exactly when offenses were about nothing but lining up and smashing heads together for 3 yards a pop which is precisely why a RB who is essentially as big or bigger than any defender on the field dominated the game. Even allowing for him to grow bigger he is now still 6'2 240 lb (let's put a limit here otherwise you know he's not going to be some 255 lb RB) and every DL he sees outweighs him by 50-70 lb, every LB he sees is his size if not bigger, safeties are only 20-30 lb lighter. Toughness is one thing Brown surely had in spades and the other was the simple fact that he was bigger than the dudes trying to tackle him. Derrick Henry is a 6'3 240 lb 4.5 running monster of a RB and he is about as effective as anyone else in the league right now because RBs simply don't matter in this era. Maybe Jim Brown would have some untapped ability he didn't need when he played in the 60s that would cause him to replicate his massive success in the modern game or maybe the dude was just freakishly big at the time and that shouldered a lot of the load for him. Reality is part of the reason teams pass more now is because everyone is too damn big to spend 40 plays running against week in, week out, unless you've got 4 RBs you're prepared to chew through. This is also why most RBs have very short careers these days, turns out even when you're 200+ lb you're not meant to get tackled 20+ times a week for 4 months of the year by dudes who can eat your weight in steak every month.

Barry Sanders is a far better example to argue because his skillset was based on speed and elusiveness, two things that transfer to any era of the game. If you are faster and harder to tackle, you're going to be better than most other people but size and power are very era-dependent. Even speed is relative to a point because we know how to teach people to run faster (go check out Olympic 100m times from 20-30 years ago, the gold medalist times wouldn't even qualify for modern Olympics) but stuff like elusiveness and vision is kind of just built into the guy.
We are not comparing pro players from the 70's with current pro players. We are talking about high school kids. They are not going to be super human like an Olympic sprinter. They will get faster and stronger as grown men. I don't see much of a difference between 15-18 yr old kids from the 90's to today. The equipment they wear is lighter and better.
 
I'm not arguing that Jim Brown would do what he did in this era. I'm just saying that using Young/Montana and saying they aren't the best ever, there is a reason. Well many (majority??) consider Brown/Ryan as the best ever, and they are older players.

Barry Sanders isn't really considered that. And even though I don't watch it, but kind of coincides with the White era vs. Going forward is Gretzky. There is absolutely no questions about best ever in that sport, so the advances in everything hasn't closed that gap.

And on Montana, the reason he is no longer considered the greatest doesn't really tie to the advances, as I think he is still considered 2nd best. And it was when Brady passed his championship total that he was considered better
i believe sanders is considered one of the greatest he did more in less time and left before he ended up like earl Campbell. just saying
 
i believe sanders is considered one of the greatest he did more in less time and left before he ended up like earl Campbell. just saying

Not saying he isn't considered one of the greatest running backs all time (I do), but there are a lot of people who consider Jim Brown the greatest football player of time.

My entire point is that there are older players in sports who are considered the or one of the best players of all time, so the argument can't just be made that "newer is better".
 
  • Like
Reactions: SFUWO
17 years between 98 and 15. The kind of changes you are referring to just aren't there. Last time I was in the Salem weight room two players from the 98 team still held the bench press and dead lift records. Defensive end for Salem 98 won state championship in the intermediate hurdles with a sub 39 seconds time. Linebacker for Salem two time state defensive player of the year. Running back for Salem 98 wins three state championships 96, 98,99 in football and was a key player on the 98-99 State Title basketball team. He is probably the second best athlete to ever attend Salem (Richard Morgan probably first).Plays and starts at linebacker for UVA and the Ravens. Players on the 98 team would excell in other sports, lacrosse, soccer, basketball, tennis, track, baseball. .
One player going both ways and he alternated series with another Defensive player on offense. And of course SIZE. Offensive line including tight end from left to right:
6 7 320, 6 2 250, 6 0 255, 6 1 245, 6 5 305,
6 2 260. No player on that offensive line played defense. That's why Coach White played the style that he did. Great kicking game, awesome defense, and an offensive line that would grind you into submission. Salem wanted to beat you 28 0. Rather than 42 14. 10 Defensive shutouts in 14 games.
I have not seen any track records fall recently at Salem either. You would think that would be a sign too.
 
Coach White's defense pitched 74 shutouts in 21 seasons and averaged to give up less that 10 points per game over a 21 year span including playoffs...amazing
 
Coach White had no problem punting. He would run it between the tackles three times and punt. He would play field position. Salem under White was extremely physical and would wear teams down knowing his defense wasn't going to give up much. 98 was probably the best example of his philosophy
 
The more I think about this I have come to the conclusion that 98 was the best example of the Merrill Gainer, Willis White philosophy and 2015 is the best example of the Mags philosophy. The Mags philosophy took the basics of the White philosophy and expanded it to a more modern system. The area where Mags really excelled was play action passing game. White did this but rarely. Mags really made it a big part of Salems offensive system. Could the 98 team have played in Mags system? Oh God yes. Could the 15 team played in the 98 system? Two great great teams with two great coaches and staffs
 
  • Like
Reactions: SpartanOfYore
There really is no right or wrong answer here. Both Willis White and Stephen Magenbauer were absolutely first-rate high school football coaches, who exceeded initial expectations. I can’t see any clear choice between the two, when both performed about as well as they possibly could have, both surpassing all their contemporaries. It’s been an interesting discussion, but ultimately, in my view, one that is moot.

I will say this - it is possible that people of...ahem...a certain age could lean toward picking White for actual well-considered reasons, and not just because they’re pining for yesteryear. I think to say that is painting with waaay too broad a brush. I am not making that pick; I will not choose between the two. However, consider: it has always been more difficult to create than to maintain. And when it comes to football, White created the “Salem way.”

Many people may not know, or might have forgotten, the dire state Salem High football was in prior to White’s hiring in 1983. After a good inaugural season in ‘77 that saw Salem come one missed two-point conversion from the district title and a playoff berth, things went off the rails quickly. In 1980, the Spartans finished 2-8, and suffered six shutouts. That team did manage to score 41 points - for the entire season. 1981 saw Salem post it’s worst-ever record, at 1-9. The following year, the record swelled to 3-7. Such was the landscape when White was hired when Salem started its own school system. Eddie Joyce was still less than ten years removed from the head coaching job at Andrew Lewis, and I’m sure many around town still had vague thoughts of a glorious return to the Joyce halcyon days of the ‘60s. However, if I recall correctly, White’s new employers had a more immediate, concrete goal in mind: just beat the Roanoke County schools. Going into the ‘83 season, Salem had lost every meeting with both Cave Spring and Northside, for a combined record of 0-12. If White could just beat those guys, and maybe post a winning record, that would be a fine start.

Well, mission accomplished. Under White, Salem dominated nearly all local and district rivals, and went on to achieve state prominence. All while conducting himself as an old-school gentleman. And perhaps most importantly, White established how things would be done when it came to the Salem football program. Not just with his in-game philosophy of reliance on rock-solid defense, stressing offensive fundamentals, playing field position, and letting the other team make the fatal mistakes, although that was obviously crucial. But also by setting expectations for every big and little thing each player and coach would do. From the way players took the field for warmups, to how scouting reports were presented, things were now going to be done the Salem way.

That is why I could see people going through that hypothetical door to suit up for White. Prior to his arrival, none of those expectations, practices, or routines existed. That all had to be made from the ground up by someone , and much to Salem’s great fortune, Willis White was the right man at the right time. Remember the thread this summer about “your school’s Mt. Rushmore”? That is why I selected White over Magenbauer for Salem’s head coach representative. Not that I think White is necessarily the better coach. Fate just decreed that he should get there first.

So, if the city of Salem landed an absolute home run hire in Willis White, it defied the odds by repeating the feat with Magenbauer. Although all of the groundwork had been laid and the building done, there were tiny cracks. After making the playoffs for sixteen consecutive seasons under White, the Spartans stayed at home in both 2002 and 2003, the latter despite an 8-2 record. Unlike White, Magenbauer wasn’t faced with a massive rebuild from scratch. His directive was just to keep Salem where it was. Which I won’t pretend to be an easy thing. Especially, as someone above pointed out, with the conflicts that can arise from blending old and new staff. I’m sure there are many people Salem could have hired in the spring of 2004 that, for varying reasons, would have fallen flat on their faces, and run the program aground. No such worries with Magenbauer. Steve not only got the Spartans back to the playoffs - his teams won the whole darn ball of wax his first two years. And while it was obvious that the defenses of his teams were definitely not the defenses of his predecessor’s teams, it’s also become obvious over time that most of that was due to the way the game was changing.

Another poster stated earlier that most of the metrics would indicate that Magenbauer is the more successful coach. That’s true, but it’s also important to remember that those metrics don’t exist in a vacuum. To ask whether or not Magenbauer would have had the success he enjoyed had he not followed White is a valid question. However, I do agree that the Salem three-peat engineered by Magenbauer in 2015, 2016, and 2017 is the most impressive accomplishment in program history. For Salem to beat three previously undefeated teams, each talent-laden and essentially at full strength, on the biggest stage was simply astounding. Especially after the program had had a bit of a lull from ‘08 to ‘11. Although I don’t think there’s as enormous a gap between the latter-day opponents and the teams that White faced as some here do - and I still view Park View ‘99 as one of Salem’s top five alltime opponents - I do definitely agree that winning the state in 4A/Class 4 got substantially more difficult after 2013’s big reorganization. Magenbauer did it three consecutive years. One just can’t question that - at all.

Would Magenbauer, had he been in his thirties in 1983, have taken Salem’s program from the doldrums to delirium, as White did? Would White, had he been in his prime in the 2010s, have duplicated the three successive crowns of Magenbauer’s teams? We will never know. All I know is, both men are examples of the very best their profession has to offer, and - cliche as it sounds - Salem football fans were blessed to have them both.
 
Last edited:
ADVERTISEMENT

Latest posts

ADVERTISEMENT