Rd.2 Salem (9-0) vs. Amherst (7-4)

[SpartanOfYore]

Let's be real here you can do all the research you want and base it off a "ratings scale" well that ratings scale doesn't play the games. So your facts are as objective as you claim mine to be. Mediocre season in the ER equivalent to being a upper half team out West. When LT was losing playoff games it was to the 5A state champion Phoebus or Hampton majority of the time. Salem has success, but to equate 4A success to 5A competition is correct. I think someone (Rod??) did a study showing how the top rated "AA Div. 4" teams wouldn't have been rated higher than teams that were playing up according to this rating you reference. So while teams were having "mediocre" seasons they were still rated higher than some of the best teams they trotted out.

Beating Franklin Co., PH-Roanoke, and some of those other schools out West that aren't that great doesn't make your point any better. Bringing up Maury, Granby, and Kempsville like they are cream puffs is funny.

Once again you guys have been a solid program, but again facing the competition that teams like Dinwiddie, Monacan, LT had to face in the past wasn't available during your glory days. You were beating Louisa, Powhatan, and some other middle of the pack now programs. When Briar Woods and Broad Run gave D4 a little taste of what was to come they reeled off 5 straight state titles. You just traded in those two juggernauts for teams from Richmond and Tidewater.

LOL Yeah, I hate when people use research and facts to back up their arguments.

The issue wasn't how Salem would do in the 5A playoffs. You stated your opinion that LT, Dinwiddie, and Monacan, among unnamed others, would have been just as consistent as Salem has been had those schools been in Div. 4/4A all along. And, you still haven't presented any kind of facts, objective or otherwise, to support that assertion. Your facts still consist solely of your opinion, which as far as I can tell is that every team that's ever been 5-5 or worse in Div. 5/5A was still better than whomever won Div. 4/4A that year. Again, since there historically have been so few games ever played cross-regionally - certainly not enough for a decent sample size from which to draw any conclusions - I feel the best (actually, only) indicators are what's shown on sites like VHSL-reference and Gilliam Ratings. And there's absolutely nothing on those sites (or anywhere else) that indicates that, for example, LT '01 (5-5), Dinwiddie '05 (1-9), or Monacan '09 (3-7) would have been contenders, serious or otherwise, for the Division 4 titles in those years. And I'll let you email Patrick Hutchinson and Matt Gilliam and tell them that you think their work is worthless.

You want to concentrate on actual on-field results? Okay. In 2013, LT beat Amherst 41-10; GW beat Amherst 40-22. In 2014, LT beat Amherst 46-7; GW beat Amherst 43-7. Very close in score and margin, in both years. So, from on-field results, we can conclude that Lake Taylor was perhaps one or two points better than GW - who has yet to be seeded better than fourth in the West region. Does that sound right to you? More on-field results for you, from this season: Liberty Christian 49, Maury 0. Last week, the West's eight seed, Millbrook, beat LCA 65-18.

Leading me to believe that Maury absolutely is a creampuff. As are Woodrow Wilson and Booker T., most years. Granby, who was good decades ago, and Churchland are creampuff-ish. It's my opinion, backed up by years of following the sport and looking at Gilliam and VHSL-Reference, that most of the eastern teams aren't facing the week-to-week Murderer's Row some would have us believe. Yes, Franklin Co. is rotten now (Salem didn't play them this year), and PH is bad. But not every one of those 46 Div. 5 or 6 teams that Salem has played since '88 has been that bad. A few were darn good. Most were middling or slightly worse, for those classifications.

Let me just interject at this point: didn't LT, Dinwiddie, Monacan, et al choose to play up? That was those schools' decision, wasn't it? To me, if one voluntarily chooses the perceived more difficult path, then complains about the results, well.....not too impressive.

But, let's dare to get down to the heart of the matter. Shauntclair asked what's going on here. The heart of the matter is, you simply cannot bear it whenever a positive comment is made about Salem, regardless of the context. It's as if you take those comments as direct affronts to LT. Daboyz19 - NOT a Salem fan - made one innocuous comment about Salem's consistency, and we get - this. Ever since the realignment two years ago, nearly all comments made about Salem have been your cue to offer some passive-aggressive snark, if not outright insults. Since tone is difficult to infer in posts, I'm asking in a very even, not-looking-for trouble way. I'd just like to resolve this: what is it about Salem that sets you off so? In most of the rest of your posts, you come across rather sensibly, making some good points and offering decent information. But you seem to lose all sense and reason when the S-word is mentioned. Do some Salem fans post superfluousy? Yes. Have a few of those posts been self-aggrandizing or self-serving? Definitely. Those irritate me, as well. But I have learned to ignore them, as I do all the posts about a few certain other schools that don't seem to me to warrant the attention. Lake Taylor absolutely deserves the attention. It's a great program and a great team (the two don't necessarily go hand-in-hand). I can't remember reading any post from a true Salem fan denying that fact, which makes your constant enmity towards us even more mystifying.

I'll even offer an olive branch, of sorts. After last season, I addressed you rather harshly (we don't need to get into whether that was deserved or not). I regret doing that, and I apologize. We're both passionate about our teams, but we should be able to agree to disagree, and leave it at that. Because I have to say: if two Virginians separated by a mere 250 miles, whose teams have played each other once in history, can't be civil and respectful to each other....well, then I don't see much hope for the Middle East. So, I hope you will take this apology and the olive branch, and treat the latter as if it comes from all Salem posters.

 

[aw19752]

Huh? What? Did I miss something? That was one heck of a dissertation Mr. Yore.

 

[DinwiddieProud]

You just can't go against a 3 time defending champ.

Agreed, agreed. Just checking on others opinions. Thanks both.

Bird...They have Hermitage number.

 

[DEVILSLB99]

LOL Yeah, I hate when people use research and facts to back up their arguments.

The issue wasn't how Salem would do in the 5A playoffs. You stated your opinion that LT, Dinwiddie, and Monacan, among unnamed others, would have been just as consistent as Salem has been had those schools been in Div. 4/4A all along. And, you still haven't presented any kind of facts, objective or otherwise, to support that assertion. Your facts still consist solely of your opinion, which as far as I can tell is that every team that's ever been 5-5 or worse in Div. 5/5A was still better than whomever won Div. 4/4A that year. Again, since there historically have been so few games ever played cross-regionally - certainly not enough for a decent sample size from which to draw any conclusions - I feel the best (actually, only) indicators are what's shown on sites like VHSL-reference and Gilliam Ratings. And there's absolutely nothing on those sites (or anywhere else) that indicates that, for example, LT '01 (5-5), Dinwiddie '05 (1-9), or Monacan '09 (3-7) would have been contenders, serious or otherwise, for the Division 4 titles in those years. And I'll let you email Patrick Hutchinson and Matt Gilliam and tell them that you think their work is worthless.

You want to concentrate on actual on-field results? Okay. In 2013, LT beat Amherst 41-10; GW beat Amherst 40-22. In 2014, LT beat Amherst 46-7; GW beat Amherst 43-7. Very close in score and margin, in both years. So, from on-field results, we can conclude that Lake Taylor was perhaps one or two points better than GW - who has yet to be seeded better than fourth in the West region. Does that sound right to you? More on-field results for you, from this season: Liberty Christian 49, Maury 0. Last week, the West's eight seed, Millbrook, beat LCA 65-18.

Leading me to believe that Maury absolutely is a creampuff. As are Woodrow Wilson and Booker T., most years. Granby, who was good decades ago, and Churchland are creampuff-ish. It's my opinion, backed up by years of following the sport and looking at Gilliam and VHSL-Reference, that most of the eastern teams aren't facing the week-to-week Murderer's Row some would have us believe. Yes, Franklin Co. is rotten now (Salem didn't play them this year), and PH is bad. But not every one of those 46 Div. 5 or 6 teams that Salem has played since '88 has been that bad. A few were darn good. Most were middling or slightly worse, for those classifications.

Let me just interject at this point: didn't LT, Dinwiddie, Monacan, et al choose to play up? That was those schools' decision, wasn't it? To me, if one voluntarily chooses the perceived more difficult path, then complains about the results, well.....not too impressive.

But, let's dare to get down to the heart of the matter. Shauntclair asked what's going on here. The heart of the matter is, you simply cannot bear it whenever a positive comment is made about Salem, regardless of the context. It's as if you take those comments as direct affronts to LT. Daboyz19 - NOT a Salem fan - made one innocuous comment about Salem's consistency, and we get - this. Ever since the realignment two years ago, nearly all comments made about Salem have been your cue to offer some passive-aggressive snark, if not outright insults. Since tone is difficult to infer in posts, I'm asking in a very even, not-looking-for trouble way. I'd just like to resolve this: what is it about Salem that sets you off so? In most of the rest of your posts, you come across rather sensibly, making some good points and offering decent information. But you seem to lose all sense and reason when the S-word is mentioned. Do some Salem fans post superfluousy? Yes. Have a few of those posts been self-aggrandizing or self-serving? Definitely. Those irritate me, as well. But I have learned to ignore them, as I do all the posts about a few certain other schools that don't seem to me to warrant the attention. Lake Taylor absolutely deserves the attention. It's a great program and a great team (the two don't necessarily go hand-in-hand). I can't remember reading any post from a true Salem fan denying that fact, which makes your constant enmity towards us even more mystifying.

I'll even offer an olive branch, of sorts. After last season, I addressed you rather harshly (we don't need to get into whether that was deserved or not). I regret doing that, and I apologize. We're both passionate about our teams, but we should be able to agree to disagree, and leave it at that. Because I have to say: if two Virginians separated by a mere 250 miles, whose teams have played each other once in history, can't be civil and respectful to each other....well, then I don't see much hope for the Middle East. So, I hope you will take this apology and the olive branch, and treat the latter as if it comes from all Salem posters.

I can live with that. ✊✊

 

[pcken]

Let's be real here you can do all the research you want and base it off a "ratings scale" well that ratings scale doesn't play the games. So your facts are as objective as you claim mine to be. Mediocre season in the ER equivalent to being a upper half team out West. When LT was losing playoff games it was to the 5A state champion Phoebus or Hampton majority of the time. Salem has success, but to equate 4A success to 5A competition is correct. I think someone (Rod??) did a study showing how the top rated "AA Div. 4" teams wouldn't have been rated higher than teams that were playing up according to this rating you reference. So while teams were having "mediocre" seasons they were still rated higher than some of the best teams they trotted out.

Beating Franklin Co., PH-Roanoke, and some of those other schools out West that aren't that great doesn't make your point any better. Bringing up Maury, Granby, and Kempsville like they are cream puffs is funny.

Once again you guys have been a solid program, but again facing the competition that teams like Dinwiddie, Monacan, LT had to face in the past wasn't available during your glory days. You were beating Louisa, Powhatan, and some other middle of the pack now programs. When Briar Woods and Broad Run gave D4 a little taste of what was to come they reeled off 5 straight state titles. You just traded in those two juggernauts for teams from Richmond and Tidewater.

I've said before and i will say it again, it's gonna be rare to see a state champ in 4A from the west and long as they have the current set up. This area simply doesn't have the talent (speed and skill players) that that area has as we saw last year in the salem/LT game. I have relatives that live in salem and their children go there and i know salem gets a huge amount of transfers in the middle school years and that way they don't have to sit out a year. They still got soundly beat by LT last year. I'm sure stating facts will get the salem folks mad at me and this will probably get deleted..lol

 

[DEVILSLB99]

GL to the Spartans today and every team out there.

 

[momomule]

I've said before and i will say it again, it's gonna be rare to see a state champ in 4A from the west and long as they have the current set up. This area simply doesn't have the talent (speed and skill players) that that area has as we saw last year in the salem/LT game. I have relatives that live in salem and their children go there and i know salem gets a huge amount of transfers in the middle school years and that way they don't have to sit out a year. They still got soundly beat by LT last year. I'm sure stating facts will get the salem folks mad at me and this will probably get deleted..lol[/QUOTE

I don't think your relatives are correct. These kids have been playing rec league ball together since they have been 6 year olds, and there have not been a "huge" or even a noticeable influx of "transfers."

 

[SpartanOfYore]

GL to the Spartans today and every team out there.

Best of luck to the Titans as well. Once again the odds-on favorites to win the whole darn thing.

 

[cutnjump]

I've said before and i will say it again, it's gonna be rare to see a state champ in 4A from the west and long as they have the current set up. This area simply doesn't have the talent (speed and skill players) that that area has as we saw last year in the salem/LT game. I have relatives that live in salem and their children go there and i know salem gets a huge amount of transfers in the middle school years and that way they don't have to sit out a year. They still got soundly beat by LT last year. I'm sure stating facts will get the salem folks mad at me and this will probably get deleted..lol

I believe that by the time the current sophomore class at Salem are seniors they could very well be a legitimate threat to win it all and capable of playing with the east at the 4A level. They might even prove that prediction wrong and arrive a year or two early(i.e. this year or next). The reality is the level of competitive football in Virginia pretty much parallels the shift in population/demographics in the state. From the early 1900's through the mid 1970's the western half of the state was more than capable of holding its own in the highest classifications with the likes of Jefferson Senior, E.C. Glass, Andrew Lewis, GW Danville, etc.. The west has steadily declined since then with population shifts and changing economies. Salem is a great and consistent program at the 4A, AA whatever lower classification level you wish to choose but, there hasn't been a legitimate threat west and south of Richmond in the upper classifications since the mid 1990's and the current east schools moving down in class reflect the reality they have been a competitive notch above the west due to the quantity and quality of athletes and playing up against higher classification competition. Numbers provide a nice source for debate, however, comparing scores can be a trap. Are scores really comparative if one winning team pulls their first stringers before halftime while another plays their starters well in to the fourth quarter? Despite deteriorating eyesight with old age I will trust what they see on the field versus purely relying on numbers/stats. Just my two cents.

 

[SpartanOfYore]

I believe that by the time the current sophomore class at Salem are seniors they could very well be a legitimate threat to win it all and capable of playing with the east at the 4A level. They might even prove that prediction wrong and arrive a year or two early(i.e. this year or next). The reality is the level of competitive football in Virginia pretty much parallels the shift in population/demographics in the state. From the early 1900's through the mid 1970's the western half of the state was more than capable of holding its own in the highest classifications with the likes of Jefferson Senior, E.C. Glass, Andrew Lewis, GW Danville, etc.. The west has steadily declined since then with population shifts and changing economies. Salem is a great and consistent program at the 4A, AA whatever lower classification level you wish to choose but, there hasn't been a legitimate threat west and south of Richmond in the upper classifications since the mid 1990's and the current east schools moving down in class reflect the reality they have been a competitive notch above the west due to the quantity and quality of athletes and playing up against higher classification competition. Numbers provide a nice source for debate, however, comparing scores can be a trap. Are scores really comparative if one winning team pulls their first stringers before halftime while another plays their starters well in to the fourth quarter? Despite deteriorating eyesight with old age I will trust what they see on the field versus purely relying on numbers/stats. Just my two cents.

They're opening a new school every year in Loudoun Co. while this end of the state just keeps emptying out. If the numbers continue as they have, Salem - whose numbers have held dead level for 25 years - will likely drop to 3A in the next cycle. IIRC according to the enrollments shown on the VHSL's site, Salem was among the smallest six 4A schools during the most recent R&R.

Almost every current 1A or 2A school out here used to be in old AA. Most of the 3A's and remaining few 4A's were AAA. Say what we will about the VHSL, they face some daunting challenges from the ever-shifting sands of population.

 

[Shruikan]

They're opening a new school every year in Loudoun Co. while this end of the state just keeps emptying out. If the numbers continue as they have, Salem - whose numbers have held dead level for 25 years - will likely drop to 3A in the next cycle. IIRC according to the enrollments shown on the VHSL's site, Salem was among the smallest six 4A schools during the most recent R&R.

Almost every current 1A or 2A school out here used to be in old AA. Most of the 3A's and remaining few 4A's were AAA. Say what we will about the VHSL, they face some daunting challenges from the ever-shifting sands of population.

Frederick County is experiencing a similar problem, except without the resources that Loudoun has. They've been trying to build a 4th high school for years now and it may never happen. Sherando will likely have to move up to 5A in the next cycle if Frederick doesn't do more redistricting to keep the three county schools in 4A.

Interesting times ahead across all parts of the state! I don't envy the VHSL people who will have some rather important decisions to make over the next several years.