Salem 48 Amherst County 20 Final
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Looks like a typical "Christmas" Swiss cheese defense. He better get that offense going, which i'm sure he will.
Swiss cheese defense. But there is plenty of time to tighten things up.
It's not going to matter with their schedule. At least in their favor, 2 of the 3 games they're most likely to win come at the end of the season so they'll conceivably be at their best by then. 3-7 would be a good season for them in relative terms, they're simply not better than those other 7 teams and I don't think they're good enough to pull off an upset of that caliber either. Beating who they should beat would be a good sign and they can go from there but who knows what the future holds.
rough way to start but thats what happens when you start your schedule off with the cream of the crop. I thought the offense set up was good course gonna take sometime to get it working. Considering there basically starting the program from gound zero. Gonna be a tough season with the schedule they have. Is this the 1st year of schedule cycle? But have a feeling that if the boys fight threw the schedule we gonna see a better team come end of year.
I agree..Christmas is building from the ground up..He has done an amazing job but the results won't happen until after next year.Amherst just don't have the talent right now due to some decisions.
Got you guys over Rustburg, LCA, and Liberty. You beat LCA and the other two barely escaped against what I think is undoubtedly a worse team than this year.
Tough game for Amherst Salem let up in the 3rd that 14 points came from defensive backups by salem.
Yeah it’s a typical “Christmas Swiss cheese defense” or it’s the first game against a Salem that’s back to normal of the first year of a massive rebuild.
Salems defense is very good will blow teams out ( best defense they have had in at least 8 to 10 years
Biggest issue wasn't swiss cheese it was Salem. they will make alot of defense look like swiss cheese.
Amherst Agree but salem,s line last week against Bryd etc was weak we have had problems holding the offensive line
First team defense dominant again. Amherst points scored on kick return and against second and third team defense after Salem went up 48 6 after first series of second half
D alone is going to take Salem a long way, it is extremely good (and still young). RBs are a known thing but I was happy to see WRs playing well, getting behind DBs and hooking up with Chaney for a good air attack. Hopefully the O continues to come along and this could be a dangerous team come November.
Also the A/V club did a excellent job on the youtube live stream. I was very impressed an enjoyed watching the game. An its nice that the radio broadcast is the audio for the stream.
Salem defense looks top tier offensive is coming along pretty good ...
Amherst #4 stood out to me very Fast
# 11 the quarter back looks good as well
Amherst #4 stood out to me very Fast
# 11 the quarter back looks good as well
Meant to mention this, I was impressed with that and Amherst's non-homer announcers. They need to adjust how far their corner cameras can cover because they missed anything that happened in that area of the EZ but overall a nice stream to watch and a treat for Lancer fans who can't make it out.
It depends on the offense. Sutphin is a technically a hybrid linebacker/safety and will split the slot against a a team going 4-wide but in almost any other situation his responsibilities and alignment are more similar to a tradition linebacker... even walked up on the line at times.
Sutphin is a hybrid, but it’s a def. end, linebacker mix. He has never played back as a safety. Their base is a two backer look. The only time they are a 4-3 look is when their weak side backer moves out into the slot and the mike backer moves over into a zero technique.
When he is on the LOS, that is a 5-2 front but practically any other time, it is a 4-3. Also, he is the guy that moves out against trips. The weak side LB, Wood, never moves out to the slot. I still don't understand where you are getting the 4-2-5 from.
When they are playing against say, FC next week or even if they were scrimmaging themselves they would predominantly be in a 4-3. They will predominantly be in a 4-3 against any team that is using 11,12,13, 20, or 21 personnel.
Against 20:
Against 21 pro right:
Against 21 slot right:
Against 10 w/trips:
Against 10 2x2:
Generally speaking, in a 4-3, the mike backer is lined up over the center. Salem only does that when both outside backers are out of the box. Salem keeps two backers in the box and slides out #31 vs no tight end formations normally. If there is a tight end, 31 walks up on the outside of him. It’s not considered a 5 front, because in odd front defenses(5-2, 3-4, 3-3), there is a 0 technique down lineman, over the center. That is not the case in any of your photos. All of your pictures except the Byrd ones are from last year. Salem did run a 4-3 last year due to the amount of inexperienced players on the field. They ran straight zero coverage the majority of the year. The Byrd photos show this years defense, which is what they have predominantly run since around 2014, with the exception of last year. Looking at the two Byrd pics, the first is a prevent. Seeing how there are starters on the field, I’m assuming it’s from the end of the first half. The second pic shows what looks to be their base alignment. From where 31 and the safety are aligned, I would venture to guess if you watch your clip, and not just that frozen frame, 31 blitzes on this play.
You don’t have to have a 0 tech nose for a five man front and you don’t have to have an MLB over the center for a three LB look. The front/personnel numbering that we are talking about has nothing to do with gap alignment.
They will walk up an LB outside of the TE pretty often to make it a essentially a 5-2 front (Not to be confused with a 52 front that has 5 and 2 techniques) with 4-3 personnel. I still don’t understand where you are getting the 4-2-5 from. Who is the 5th defensive back?
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I didn’t say you had to have a zero technique to be a five man front. I said in an odd front defense you have a zero technique player. I know he can shade one way or the other. Salem doesn’t typically play a zero technique or shade.
There are 4 down linemen and two backers. That’s the 4-2. The five includes Sutphin, as he will drop into coverage at times. In other defenses he could be referred to as a nickel. Salem doesn’t call him this because he is asked to do things that nickle backs are not, such as walk up on the LOS overtop a tight end. Salem calls him a robber and uses him as a def. end, linebacker hybrid. He is primarily a run stopper. He definitely is not a safety who is asked to cover downfield.
There are 4 down linemen and two backers. That’s the 4-2. The five includes Sutphin, as he will drop into coverage at times. In other defenses he could be referred to as a nickel. Salem doesn’t call him this because he is asked to do things that nickle backs are not, such as walk up on the LOS overtop a tight end. Salem calls him a robber and uses him as a def. end, linebacker hybrid. He is primarily a run stopper. He definitely is not a safety who is asked to cover downfield.
I thought i knew a little about football. but after reading you guys explanations about defensive schemes, i know absolutely nothing. lol
4-3 has shifts which cause differing alignments. A backer can walk up on the line in a 4-3 outside of an end which doesn’t make it a 5-2 but rather an over or under look depending on personnel (will or Sam). Most times a 5 man front has a 0 technique or somebody covering up the center, in a true 52 or 53 where the backers are behind them or in the gaps. It looks like they treat the will as their nickel and sliding him out in space to cover slot.
A 4-3 under is a 5 man front with 4-3 personnel. That is why I still don't understand the 4-2-5 reasoning as a base defense. Sutphin is either a traditional linebacker, or a walked up linebacker far more often than he is a DB.
They don't slide the Will out over the slot, they move the Robber out to the slot sometimes. They will always move the Robber out to trips, the same that any 4-3 team would do.
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1st point unless there’s 5 down lineman a 5 man front isn’t a 5 man front. There’s a Nose, 2 tackles and 2 ends to equate to a 5 man front. A 4-3 over/under doesn’t become a 5 man front, it’s a 4 man front with a backer walked up on the line.
2nd 4-2-5 depiction comes from the confusion you all have from describing the (OB = your robber) many would say you shift to a 425 look when facing a spread or trips set. If the robber or OB shifts out of the box or widens then that’s why people say it’s not the true 4-3 and more of a 4-2-5.
3rd point the will is probably who you call a robber teams term things different but I’m assuming there’s a mike and a sam, and the actions of the robber you call would seem they’re the will. Does the robber shade to strong side every play? To me it’s a true 4-3 with some 4-2-5 spread concepts drawn into it. Call it pa-Tay-to or pa-Tay-ter either way the word is still a potato and both have the same meaning.
Down lineman do not change the numbers of the front from the perspective of the offense. For starters, Salem's DEs, are usually in a two-point stance but they are counted the exact same as they would be if their hand was on the ground. We would still consider their base defense as a four-man front as opposed to a two-man front. The old Salem 53 defense out of the 5-3 had two DEs that aligned in two-point stances but it was still a five-man front. A linebacker walked up outside the TE is the exact same numbering as if you subbed in an extra DE that had his hand in the ground at the same position. You could put five defensive tackles in the game and if the alignment was the same a 4-3 under, the offense would number it and block them the same way. You could put five standing defensive backs on the LOS in the same alignment and they would theoretically be counted and blocked the same way as the five defensive tackles would.
I agree with this, which is why I said that their base defense is a 4-3. You are clearly saying that he does not have very many DB responsibilities or alignments but you are counting him as one of the five DBs.
A defensive lineman is considered a defensive tackle a nose guard or a defensive end. I guess I should’ve clarified a down lineman meaning a defensive line, not his physical hand in the dirt. You could put them all in a 2. Point stance doesn’t change the fact that the defense has the same concepts. A 4-3 isn’t a 5 man front no matter what alignment it has. A front is considered the number of lineman the defense has and the second number says how many backers on the field so the point isn’t about the hand in the dirt but the position group.
A 4-3 embodies 425 concepts when you slide the (robber) out to cover the space created by the alignment of the offense. Generally in spread variations this is when that robber walks out into space.
4-3 under/over isn’t a 5 front because the backer is on the line covering a tight end or the strength of the offense because his responsibilities remain the same as a backer (the end doesn’t become essentially another tackle). Yes it may look like a 5 front but it’s not a 5 man front. Just for clarification.
For example a 4-4 doesn’t become a 5-3 when you pull one backer off the line.
I’m not saying Salem is not a 4/3 defense, I don’t think that’s the debate but rather what you consider the robber (will) responsibility and how the offense treats it as 4/3 or a hybrid 4-25. Running teams probably view it more 4/3 and spread more 4/25 but the 5 man fronts are more short yardage, single wing, and ground and pound.
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I do get what you are saying and I agree with everything you wrote here. What I am saying is from perspective of the offense a 4-3 under is a 5 man front... it is blocked and numbered the same regardless of what position the defenders on the LOS are. I completely understand that the defensive terminology is still a 4-3 under and not a 5-2 but the offense is going to treat it like a 5-2 regardless assuming there are not any wacky alignments.
Agree with your thoughts and rationale. Football is football these are the kind of convos I’ve missed.
How would you treat a 3-4 defense? With the olbs on the LOS? Would you treat it as a 5 man front as well?
Your original point was that sutphin was a safety/backer hybrid. He isn’t. The Salem coaches do not consider him an end. They think of him as a strong side backer who will walk up on a TE. They call it a 4-2 because there are only 2 backers in the box in their base. #42 is the will backer, and he will split out versus spread sets. You are debating your point about alignments and responsibilities from an offensive perspective. The defensive coaches look at it from a defensive perspective. If as an offensive coach you want to call it a 5 man front, go ahead, the defense doesn’t care if you want to call it a 4 or a 5.
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