Salem 48 Amherst County 20 Final

[Shabutie]

Your original point was that sutphin was a safety/backer hybrid. He isn’t. The Salem coaches do not consider him an end. They think of him as a strong side backer who will walk up on a TE. They call it a 4-2 because there are only 2 backers in the box in their base. #42 is the will backer, and he will split out versus spread sets. You are debating your point about alignments and responsibilities from an offensive perspective. The defensive coaches look at it from a defensive perspective. If as an offensive coach you want to call it a 5 man front, go ahead, the defense doesn’t care if you want to call it a 4 or a 5.

He does have some safety type alignments and responsibilities, at times, which you have said yourself. The crazy thing is I'm the one that is saying he isn't primarily a DB/safety and shouldn't be counted as such. You are adamantly saying that he is predominantly a defensive end/linebacker (Which he is) but for some reason you are still counting him as a DB in their base defense. The reality is that he does all three things some but the vast majority of the time he IS in the box, which again is confusing to me because you are saying that he is usually at linebacker or defensive end yet saying he is usually not in the box.

Or... are you actually trying to say that #31 Sutphin is generally in the box but Wood #42 is generally outside of the box? If so, that is a completely different argument and it is simply not accurate.

 

[insidedog]

I have said repeatedly that 42 is in the box. He is an inside backer. I said he will bump out versus certain formations, and when that happens the mike will slide over the center. That is when Salem’s defense looks like a typical 4-3. If you were to ask one of Salem’s defensive coaches what they run, they would tell you a 4-2-5. They consider the robber a hybrid position and don’t count him as one of the linebackers because of his different responsibilities. According to their defensive coordinator on their defense, they have a nose tackle, a defensive tackle, two defensive ends, two linebackers(mike and will), a robber( their adjuster), two corners, a strong safety, and a free safety.

 

[MaroonDude]

What's a robber?

 

[Shabutie]

I have said repeatedly that 42 is in the box. He is an inside backer. I said he will bump out versus certain formations, and when that happens the mike will slide over the center. That is when Salem’s defense looks like a typical 4-3. If you were to ask one of Salem’s defensive coaches what they run, they would tell you a 4-2-5. They consider the robber a hybrid position and don’t count him as one of the linebackers because of his different responsibilities. According to their defensive coordinator on their defense, they have a nose tackle, a defensive tackle, two defensive ends, two linebackers(mike and will), a robber( their adjuster), two corners, a strong safety, and a free safety.

You said 42 will bump out versus spread sets but the only time that really ever happens is if offense starts 2x2 and motions a receiver pre snap to make it trips to his side. When that happens #42 essentially becomes the Sam, the Mike #19 slides over to replace where he just vacated and the former Sam slides back into the box and becomes Will. There is still not a LB aligned in a 0 when this happens.

It can be called a 4-2-5 but it simply isn't. Sutphin has all of the responsibilities and alignments of a 4-3 linebacker. He walks up to the LOS when they are in under (Standard 4-3 Sam responsibility) or he is lined up as a traditional 4-3 Sam backer against any other formation. He will sometimes widen against 2x2, depending on the coverage as any other 4-3 linebacker would do and he walks out further against trips and predominantly plays curl/flat... again, as any 4-3 Sam linebacker would do. Is there any time or situation where he doesn't do standard 4-3 alignment/responsibilities?

He does have quite a few different responsibilities and alignments but virtually all of them are the exact same as any traditional 4-3 Sam. I just don't understand how a "defensive end/linebacker hybrid" is being considered a defensive back.

 

[insidedog]

Your right. You win. That’s what you want to hear. I’ll be sure to tell the Salem coaches when I see them next time that they have no idea what they are doing, and have been calling their defense wrong all these years. It’s a wonder that they can even get the kids to line up correctly. If only they had come to you first.

 

[Shabutie]

What's a robber?

A Robber (read) is a type of trap coverage that generally is designed to take away (Rob) certain throws. It has been around for awhile but Bud Foster from Virginia Tech really made it a lot more popular and many have learned it from his defenses. Initially as a way to get an extra defender in the box right after the ball is snapped on initial read. This was very effective against run heavy teams, but he also found success with it against spread concepts as those became prevalent later on. A simple version of this is a Cover-1 robber. For this, the MLB is simply reading the Quarterbacks eyes and looking to take away (rob) crossing routes, slants, etc. while everyone else goes man coverage with a deep free safety. A cover-2 read or robber defense is almost always going to involve the free safety reading the second receiver (inside/slot) to his side. If the second receiver doesn't attack him vertically, he is looking to rob receiver #1 (Outside receiver). The offense might be running a slant/out, slant/flat or curl/flat, post/wheel, etc. combination and instead of going with the out breaking routes (out, flat, wheel, corner) he would be looking to intercept or make a play on the slant, curl, post. If receivers are crossing, he is going to try to look for deep crossers to take away. It can technically also be applied to the corners in a Cover 2, they will usually be jamming the #1 receiver but looking inside a #2 and looking to rob and out breaking routes.

I don't understand why the position of Robber keeps being used to describe the player (Sutphin) that we are talking about. He is predominantly a curl/flat defender and practically never does roles or has any reads that a Robber would have. Insidedog used that from the start and I assumed he must have some inside knowledge of that being the terminology they use. That is just strange though because I have never in my life seen that term used for a position... it is a type of coverage that can be used by multiple different positions. Maybe he meant Strike?

 

[MaroonDude]

I've heard of the following as positions- Nitro, Diamond, Bandit, Jack, Rover, Monster, Sam, Will, Mike, Stinger, Frisco, Leo. Salem looks like a 52 Cover 4 team that drops an end verse the spread.

 

[1MoreHokie]

This is a really funny argument if you know anything about Shabutie.

 

[Shabutie]

Agree with your thoughts and rationale. Football is football these are the kind of convos I’ve missed.


How would you treat a 3-4 defense? With the olbs on the LOS? Would you treat it as a 5 man front as well?

I have enjoyed discussing it with you as well.

Yes, I would also treat an Okie front as a 5-man front. In my view, it doesn't matter what position the guys on the LOS are. You could have DEs lined up out there in a true 5-man front and they would have the ability to rush or drop back into coverage the same way that linebackers do. It could even be a safety walked up showing blitz too early and he would be counted the same way.

The main difference is going to come from how you deal with a 1 technique vs the 0 technique that will probably aligned if its a 3-4. In general, that alignment shouldn't change things very much but that varies based on the offensive system being used.

 

[salemfan32]

A Robber (read) is a type of trap coverage that generally is designed to take away (Rob) certain throws. It has been around for awhile but Bud Foster from Virginia Tech really made it a lot more popular and many have learned it from his defenses. Initially as a way to get an extra defender in the box right after the ball is snapped on initial read. This was very effective against run heavy teams, but he also found success with it against spread concepts as those became prevalent later on. A simple version of this is a Cover-1 robber. For this, the MLB is simply reading the Quarterbacks eyes and looking to take away (rob) crossing routes, slants, etc. while everyone else goes man coverage with a deep free safety. A cover-2 read or robber defense is almost always going to involve the free safety reading the second receiver (inside/slot) to his side. If the second receiver doesn't attack him vertically, he is looking to rob receiver #1 (Outside receiver). The offense might be running a slant/out, slant/flat or curl/flat, post/wheel, etc. combination and instead of going with the out breaking routes (out, flat, wheel, corner) he would be looking to intercept or make a play on the slant, curl, post. If receivers are crossing, he is going to try to look for deep crossers to take away. It can technically also be applied to the corners in a Cover 2, they will usually be jamming the #1 receiver but looking inside a #2 and looking to rob and out breaking routes.

I don't understand why the position of Robber keeps being used to describe the player (Sutphin) that we are talking about. He is predominantly a curl/flat defender and practically never does roles or has any reads that a Robber would have. Insidedog used that from the start and I assumed he must have some inside knowledge of that being the terminology they use. That is just strange though because I have never in my life seen that term used for a position... it is a type of coverage that can be used by multiple different positions. Maybe he meant Strike?

Robber is the terminology they use to describe Sutphin's position
(Sam Backer).