Salem vs Amherst score

[Shabutie]

Teams loaded with D-1 have well north of double digits on the roster. Now to the team you are talking about calling it 7 D-1's with Georgia Southern and Eastern Michigan in the mix would be considered a stretch by most. That is not to demean the kiss or those institutions as playing at the next level is not for everyone whether it be D-1 or D-3. While there are not available archives to definitively disprove your assertion of a national ranking they weren'the better than Top 5 in a lower classification in Virginia which means they at best might have been Top 25 in Virginia. VHSL reference has them at 41 in the state Fyi. Again, they were a good team just not near the level you recollect.

In 4a? Name to me the 4a teams with north of 10 D-1 players. Shoot, name ONE team in this area that has had that many recruits in recent history. When I say loaded with talent do you think I am comparing them to a team with 2500 students? They rank, or at least used to rank the teams nationally by classification and they were the number 1 ranked team in 4a Virginia until we slaughtered them. Do you think I was saying that they were ranked nationally against 6a schools around the country? Anyways, they still went on to the state championship game and lost by one score that year.

How is it a "stretch" to say call a D-1 player a D-1 player? Also, you didn't say anything about Florida, Marshall or Illinois. They had other plays that I didn't even mention that were highly recruited and had too poor of grades to go to the next level. They had below-average coaching and tremendous talent. I don't think they were some juggernaut because we beat them easily both times we played.

I can't stand when people are wrong and don't admit to it. Your memory was bad so you are trying to skew things in a way that might somehow make you look right and that just poor form.

 

[mike salem]

Was he #5 by chance?

Yeah he was #26 Sophomore year I think and then switched to #5 his Jr year I believe.

 

[close2salem]

I thought it was their plan to use Owen when they went to 4 wides.

He does come in on spread, but I'd like to see him come in some on the pro-set. That kid has skill in space!

 

[cutnjump]

In 4a? Name to me the 4a teams with north of 10 D-1 players. Shoot, name ONE team in this area that has had that many recruits in recent history. When I say loaded with talent do you think I am comparing them to a team with 2500 students? They rank, or at least used to rank the teams nationally by classification and they were the number 1 ranked team in 4a Virginia until we slaughtered them. Do you think I was saying that they were ranked nationally against 6a schools around the country? Anyways, they still went on to the state championship game and lost by one score that year.

How is it a "stretch" to say call a D-1 player a D-1 player? Also, you didn't say anything about Florida, Marshall or Illinois. They had other plays that I didn't even mention that were highly recruited and had too poor of grades to go to the next level. They had below-average coaching and tremendous talent. I don't think they were some juggernaut because we beat them easily both times we played.

I can't stand when people are wrong and don't admit to it. Your memory was bad so you are trying to skew things in a way that might somehow make you look right and that just poor form.

 

[close2salem]

Mags' record says he and his staff do a pretty good job of putting personnel in a position to be successful.

The coaching staff does do a good job. They do have a great record; however, it is evident some things aren't clicking well right now. Move some people around, pull in some other kids so your skilled players aren't gassed trying to play both ways the entire game.

 

[Shabutie]

Your response isn't showing Cut.

 

[cutnjump]

In 4a? Name to me the 4a teams with north of 10 D-1 players. Shoot, name ONE team in this area that has had that many recruits in recent history. When I say loaded with talent do you think I am comparing them to a team with 2500 students? They rank, or at least used to rank the teams nationally by classification and they were the number 1 ranked team in 4a Virginia until we slaughtered them. Do you think I was saying that they were ranked nationally against 6a schools around the country? Anyways, they still went on to the state championship game and lost by one score that year.

How is it a "stretch" to say call a D-1 player a D-1 player? Also, you didn't say anything about Florida, Marshall or Illinois. They had other plays that I didn't even mention that were highly recruited and had too poor of grades to go to the next level. They had below-average coaching and tremendous talent. I don't think they were some juggernaut because we beat them easily both times we played.

I can't stand when people are wrong and don't admit to it. Your memory was bad so you are trying to skew things in a way that might somehow make you look right and that just poor form.

First off the conversation didn'the start as 4A. My memory is fine it's just my perspective is far different from yours and we clearly disagree when it comes to defining what constitutes a nationally ranked team and a team "loaded" with D-1 players.

 

[cutnjump]

The coaching staff does do a good job. They do have a great record; however, it is evident some things aren't clicking well right now. Move some people around, pull in some other kids so your skilled players aren't gassed trying to play both ways the entire game.

It is one game, the first game no less, played in overheated weather conditions. More often than not, everything does not click right out of the gate. I think you have to trust coaches, particularly those that win a lot, and see kids every day in practice to put the players on the field and in the best position to give them a chance for success. I do not disagree with your suggestions on getting others involved but, the only thing worse than not utilizing all your personnel is putting someone out there that is not ready to play either physically or mentally due to a lack of reps. Historically, I think Salem has tried and done a decent job of developing depth so maybe it will take a little more time this year.

 

[close2salem]

It is one game, the first game no less, played in overheated weather conditions. More often than not, everything does not click right out of the gate. I think you have to trust coaches, particularly those that win a lot, and see kids every day in practice to put the players on the field and in the best position to give them a chance for success.

I do respect and trust the coaches. They are a great guys. They are only human. They can make mistakes. It doesn't hurt to give opinions. Hearing other perspectives makes you better at whatever you do! I've witnessed Salem having years where they played too many people two ways. They did not go far in the playoffs those years. Then I look at last year and there was one two way starter. Don't get me wrong, I think kids can and should play both ways, but you need to expand your depth and keep fresh legs on the field. You're going to want that experience and depth come playoffs.

 

[one man]

You don't know, you shouldn't comment. WF was ranked nationally in the game. Linebacker Darryl Gresham went to Florida on scholarship. Linebacker Maurice Kitchens went to Marshall and was one of the best players on the team. Quarterback/DB Dere Hicks went to Illinois and they had the fastest 100m timed in the state (or tied for it) with Mijuan Curtis. Running back Dewayne Priest went on to play at Eastern Michigan. Linebacker EJ Webb to Georgia Southern. They also had a lineman that I can't remember the name of that went somewhere.

Good call buddy.

I remember that team, beat us 13-0 in R3-D4 title game in 2003. That team allowed 14 points in 4 playoff games but lost 6-0 to Powhatan in the state title game. (7-0 over Blacksburg, 13-0 over Liberty, 13-8 over Magna Vista). The lost regular season games to Salem and Franklin County. Probably the best defense we lined up against during my 4 years of HS. Not sure Fleming was nationally ranked but they did have multiple D-1 players as Shabutie mentioned. Mijuan ran track at NC A&T, also had Donnell Blake, Arke Thomas and Casey Corner who all had D-1 potential but didn't have grades and/or got tied up into the streets.

 

[Shabutie]

First off the conversation didn'the start as 4A. My memory is fine it's just my perspective is far different from yours and we clearly disagree when it comes to defining what constitutes a nationally ranked team and a team "loaded" with D-1 players.

I specified in the second post that we were talking about 4a and you still responded to that in a similar fashion. Do you really think seven D-1 players for a 4a school isn't loaded? Was Lake Taylor not loaded the last couple of years? Your memory obviously wasn't good and you were wrong and then tried to backtrack. We were talking about talent in the area and that was a team with more talented players than any other team around here in a very, very long time. What is your definition of a loaded 4a team? This will help clear things up for me.

I have seen your posts on here for many years and generally like what you have to say but you were flat out wrong here. You are comparing your memory to someone that was physically playing for the team during that time.

 

[Shabutie]

I remember that team, beat us 13-0 in R3-D4 title game in 2003. That team allowed 14 points in 4 playoff games but lost 6-0 to Powhatan in the state title game. (7-0 over Blacksburg, 13-0 over Liberty, 13-8 over Magna Vista). The lost regular season games to Salem and Franklin County. Probably the best defense we lined up against during my 4 years of HS. Not sure Fleming was nationally ranked but they did have multiple D-1 players as Shabutie mentioned.

Yeah they were ranked and we heard about it all week leading into the game. I still think we had a great shot to win the state championship that year without the strange playoff situation. Blacksburg beat us in a back-and-forth game because they basically found one player matchup with Sam Wheeler and threw jump balls the entire second half. On the other hand we manhandled Fleming.

Anyways, the original point of my post was about the difference in talent in the area and as I said, for those two years, it was VERY good.

 

[cutnjump]

I specified in the second post that we were talking about 4a and you still responded to that in a similar fashion. Do you really think seven D-1 players for a 4a school isn't loaded? Was Lake Taylor not loaded the last couple of years? Your memory obviously wasn't good and you were wrong and then tried to backtrack. We were talking about talent in the area and that was a team with more talented players than any other team around here in a very, very long time. What is your definition of a loaded 4a team? This will help clear things up for me.

I have seen your posts on here for many years and generally like what you have to say but you were flat out wrong here. You are comparing your memory to someone that was physically playing for the team during that time.

The post that originated this discussion was 1MoreHokie questioning whether you and another poster might be wistful in remembering the quality of play from your time and you responding with info on teams from the period including the statement that WF was loaded with D-1 players at that time and nationally ranked which is what I responded to. While my response could have been better phrased than calling it BS the response was not and has not as yet been factually proven incorrect, despite your assertion they were nationally ranked. You are correct you clarified to say 4A in a subsequent post, a distinction I did not recognize, however, one could just as easily debate whether your " clarification" is any different than you accusing me of skewing the argument.

To answer your question on loaded for a 4A , I would say over the last three years LT would fill that bill with double digit offers from the likes of Ohio State, Florida State, Temple, Notre Dame, etc.. 7 for that Fleming team is a good number and a great number for the Roanoke Valley area but, there is 4A and comparable level football played in places in addition to the Roanoke Valley, a fact that probably plays largely in our differing perspectives. I do not believe my memory is faulty but, if you point out where I have made a factual misstatement, as opposed to a difference in perception I will be happy to discuss further. On the issue of national rank, I am not questioning your belief as to what you heard the week prior to your game, however, I am contending that your perception of what "nationally ranked" meant needs to be examined in greater detail. I am not aware of any truly national rankings that distinguish by classification. If you think about what that would entail it is hard to grasp how varying classifications from across states could be equalized to get to comparable numbers as not all states adhere to standardized enrollment numbers. The national rankings that have always existed to the best of my knowledge disregarded classification and focused solely on the best teams. Yes that is biased to larger schools. It has also been refined over the years as information has become better and, most importantly, why I think you will find through research that the only Roanoke Valley team ever to make that list was the '71 Lewis team of "Remember The Titans" distinction. The irony of them being honored Friday night at the Amherst game adds just another twist. You guys may have been told and in may have been reported that WF was ranked #1 the week of your game, however, I believe it is much more likely that a national publication ranked them #1 in the State of Virginia in 4A which is a far different thing than being nationally ranked or #1 in the nation in a particular classification. We can agree to disagree on what constitutes a loaded 4A team but, I believe your assertion that my memory is incorrect is wrong and I know that your attempt to accuse me of skewing the argument in order to appear correct was wrong. Yes you played at that time which gives you a different perspective than my seats in the stands but, it does not guarantee your memory is any better.

 

[mike salem]

Your response isn't showing Cut.

I remember that team, beat us 13-0 in R3-D4 title game in 2003. That team allowed 14 points in 4 playoff games but lost 6-0 to Powhatan in the state title game. (7-0 over Blacksburg, 13-0 over Liberty, 13-8 over Magna Vista). The lost regular season games to Salem and Franklin County. Probably the best defense we lined up against during my 4 years of HS. Not sure Fleming was nationally ranked but they did have multiple D-1 players as Shabutie mentioned. Mijuan ran track at NC A&T, also had Donnell Blake, Arke Thomas and Casey Corner who all had D-1 potential but didn't have grades and/or got tied up into the streets.

I worked with Mijuan's mom at the PO.

 

[DinGen53]

I think Phoebus 2008 had 10+ d1 players and would be what i would consider loaded

 

[shauntclair]

Gotta' give cutnjump some credit here. National Rankings do not deal with State Classification. Waste of time.

 

[Shabutie]

Gotta' give cutnjump some credit here. National Rankings do not deal with State Classification. Waste of time.

We are talking about 10+ years ago and I'm pretty sure they did then. If not they actually ranked regardless of classification. Unless we are calling Willis White and the newspaper that was reporting before the game inaccurate. The reason I don't think that is likely is because coach White was not someone to drum up unwarranted "motivation" for games. I can only trust the sources that I heard this from at the time because this was not a time where I could google and find any information I wanted to... I didn't own a computer.

 

[Shabutie]

The post that originated this discussion was 1MoreHokie questioning whether you and another poster might be wistful in remembering the quality of play from your time and you responding with info on teams from the period including the statement that WF was loaded with D-1 players at that time and nationally ranked which is what I responded to. While my response could have been better phrased than calling it BS the response was not and has not as yet been factually proven incorrect, despite your assertion they were nationally ranked. You are correct you clarified to say 4A in a subsequent post, a distinction I did not recognize, however, one could just as easily debate whether your " clarification" is any different than you accusing me of skewing the argument.

To answer your question on loaded for a 4A , I would say over the last three years LT would fill that bill with double digit offers from the likes of Ohio State, Florida State, Temple, Notre Dame, etc.. 7 for that Fleming team is a good number and a great number for the Roanoke Valley area but, there is 4A and comparable level football played in places in addition to the Roanoke Valley, a fact that probably plays largely in our differing perspectives. I do not believe my memory is faulty but, if you point out where I have made a factual misstatement, as opposed to a difference in perception I will be happy to discuss further. On the issue of national rank, I am not questioning your belief as to what you heard the week prior to your game, however, I am contending that your perception of what "nationally ranked" meant needs to be examined in greater detail. I am not aware of any truly national rankings that distinguish by classification. If you think about what that would entail it is hard to grasp how varying classifications from across states could be equalized to get to comparable numbers as not all states adhere to standardized enrollment numbers. The national rankings that have always existed to the best of my knowledge disregarded classification and focused solely on the best teams. Yes that is biased to larger schools. It has also been refined over the years as information has become better and, most importantly, why I think you will find through research that the only Roanoke Valley team ever to make that list was the '71 Lewis team of "Remember The Titans" distinction. The irony of them being honored Friday night at the Amherst game adds just another twist. You guys may have been told and in may have been reported that WF was ranked #1 the week of your game, however, I believe it is much more likely that a national publication ranked them #1 in the State of Virginia in 4A which is a far different thing than being nationally ranked or #1 in the nation in a particular classification. We can agree to disagree on what constitutes a loaded 4A team but, I believe your assertion that my memory is incorrect is wrong and I know that your attempt to accuse me of skewing the argument in order to appear correct was wrong. Yes you played at that time which gives you a different perspective than my seats in the stands but, it does not guarantee your memory is any better.

This is a good response and I mean that sincerely.

I have never made comments about the quality of teams from this area or tried to force the idea that things have changed but I have seen this come up so many times and finally felt the need to comment.

We are talking about teams in this area and how talented they were. Obviously I wasn't trying to compare this team with the random select teams from Florida, Louisiana, California, etc.

My memory of the competition we played and specifically comparing it with where the area teams are right now is definitely accurate. It isn't even close right now and that is part of the reason why, in my opinion, the West teams have been so shell shocked the state championship games up until last year.

I will be honest, some of the things you posted seemed nefarious in nature but it looks like it was more of a difference in opinion in regards to areas. The crux of my post was the difference in talent in the area from when I played to where it is now. I still respect you as a poster and apologize for any accusations I made.

 

[cutnjump]

This is a good response and I mean that sincerely.

I have never made comments about the quality of teams from this area or tried to force the idea that things have changed but I have seen this come up so many times and finally felt the need to comment.

We are talking about teams in this area and how talented they were. Obviously I wasn't trying to compare this team with the random select teams from Florida, Louisiana, California, etc.

My memory of the competition we played and specifically comparing it with where the area teams are right now is definitely accurate. It isn't even close right now and that is part of the reason why, in my opinion, the West teams have been so shell shocked the state championship games up until last year.

I will be honest, some of the things you posted seemed nefarious in nature but it looks like it was more of a difference in opinion in regards to areas. The crux of my post was the difference in talent in the area from when I played to where it is now. I still respect you as a poster and apologize for any accusations I made.

Thank you for that response and there was no need for you to apologize for passionately defending your position but, it is appreciated and noted as well. Fact is, it is all about communication and, I got us sideways right out of the gate with the "BS reference" and we both continued down that path for a while. So my apologies as well for my part.

I have known Coach White since the '70s and his days at PH and would never imply he needed to use false implications to motivate his teams. Me, having known him, and you, having played for him, both know he had far more direct and effective techniques if he wanted to make a point. Again, it is about communication, both what he and the paper said and/or printed, what they intended to convey and what was actually heard.

You and I do not disagree on the crux of your post and the comparative level of play now versus historically. The conversation has come up many times on this board with lots of people chiming in including Spartan of Yore, OMHDC and others young and old. Some good discussions and points were made in those, in my opinion. I do not believe there is a disagreement on this board regarding the general crux of the argument or the East/West debate. The differences and distinctions lie in the perceptions(some centered in age/experience and others due to changes in the game itself). Maybe I will revive that topic again in another thread, as the reasons for the decline and the line of demarcation from play trending upward to declining is certainly open to continued debate and discussion. Enjoy your Sunday!

 

[AdvocateOfMany434]

wow! just reading this made me want to be front and center watching this game.

 

[ClarkeFan83]

I hope I do if I'm in the woods being chased by bear!

It doesn't matter if you can run a 4.3 when being chased by a bear. What matters is your ability to outrun your buddy!

 

[86CulpGrad]

I do know what I'm talking about , I played for Salem and from a players perspective competition is getting low and the players just aren't built the same way they used to be .

Ok big boy...mister I-just-joined-on-Friday guy. So when did they stop building them the same way they use to? As soon as you left? I guess all the success they had last year/year before/etc... was just luck. Ever since you left things have went to pot.

 

[mike salem]

Good post Mike, but even with the anticipated improvement, I can't fathom this Salem team matching last year's defensively. I just don't think they're gonna have all the guys. Fervently hope they prove me wrong!

They may not have the personnel as last year, but there are definitely pieces to the puzzle that they haven't figured out how to place yet. Mundy coming back will obviously help the OL, but could also help the DL by switching players around to their natural positions. But even before that there are a bunch of adjustments that can be made on the DL and other key defensive positions to make a difference. If they can figure out how to place the "pieces" of the puzzle, they could be a completely different team. I believe the timing of this off week is perfect. They surprised everyone last year, I think they have the potential to surprise people again. Rough start, but a lot of potential.

 

[cutnjump]

They may not have the personnel as last year, but there are definitely pieces to the puzzle that they haven't figured out how to place yet. Mundy coming back will obviously help the OL, but could also help the DL by switching players around to their natural positions. But even before that there are a bunch of adjustments that can be made on the DL and other key defensive positions to make a difference. If they can figure out how to place the "pieces" of the puzzle, they could be a completely different team. I believe the timing of this off week is perfect. They surprised everyone last year, I think they have the potential to surprise people again. Rough start, but a lot of potential.

I think Friday night was different from a variety of perspectives in a lot of games. What I am about to offer up is my opinion why play may be different Friday night from what you can expect later in the season but, it is no way intended to minimize the victors or make excuses for the losers as BOTH teams played in the same conditions and followed comparable preseason rules and I believe the deserving teams won. The heat was oppressive in a lot of places across the state and it affects players. That affect is only exacerbated if a kid has an active role going both ways. I will use the Salem game just as an example, however, I am sure similar examples can be recounted from other games around the state. Normally, players are observed bent over and grasping late in the third or fourth quarters particularly kids going both ways, but, in watching the game on TV I noted it started late in the first quarter Friday night for both teams, although Salem seemed to have a larger number. I noted the same thing at the game I actually attended in person. I doubt those weather conditions continue through the season and the situation will be further aided by developing depth and/or getting injured players back. In addition to the game I attended and watching the entire Salem game on TV, I saw highlights from multiple games around the area and state and one thing that stood out to me was what seemed to be an unusually large number of missed tackles in a lot of games and as you would expect the victors were most often the lesser offenders. I am not sure whether contact rules, teaching techniques, first game jitters, etc. are the major factor but, I would expect tackling to improve going forward. I would guess there were a lot of coaches across the state Saturday morning that, while disappointed with being saddled with a loss, were probably thinking we aren't going to play in a furnace every Friday night and if we focus on the fundamental breakdowns and working out the first game kinks we can still get where we want to go.

 

[Lineheart]

They may not have the personnel as last year, but there are definitely pieces to the puzzle that they haven't figured out how to place yet. Mundy coming back will obviously help the OL, but could also help the DL by switching players around to their natural positions. But even before that there are a bunch of adjustments that can be made on the DL and other key defensive positions to make a difference. If they can figure out how to place the "pieces" of the puzzle, they could be a completely different team. I believe the timing of this off week is perfect. They surprised everyone last year, I think they have the potential to surprise people again. Rough start, but a lot of potential.

They may not have the personnel as last year, but there are definitely pieces to the puzzle that they haven't figured out how to place yet. Mundy coming back will obviously help the OL, but could also help the DL by switching players around to their natural positions. But even before that there are a bunch of adjustments that can be made on the DL and other key defensive positions to make a difference. If they can figure out how to place the "pieces" of the puzzle, they could be a completely different team. I believe the timing of this off week is perfect. They surprised everyone last year, I think they have the potential to surprise people again. Rough start, but a lot of potential.

Amherst had a 6.4 320lb starting lineman just got cleared before game that didn't play and a QB first game since a broken leg.Throw in Amherst fastest RB only played LB cause of the heat,I think both teams will improve as season goes.They will see each other again.

 

[mike salem]

Amherst had a 6.4 320lb starting lineman just got cleared before game that didn't play and a QB first game since a broken leg.Throw in Amherst fastest RB only played LB cause of the heat,I think both teams will improve as season goes.They will see each other again.

QB looked fine to me, fully recovered. I didn't mean to imply Amherst wouldn't get better. Obviously, the heat affected both teams, there were injuries or personnel changes that will occur throughout the course of the year, and both teams had missed opportunities. That was an exciting game that could have been won by Amherst by 2 TD or Salem by 2 TD, but it ended appropriately with the winning margin being 2 points. The game had everything you'd want to see, except for the victory for Salem! Great job by Amherst and I think these 2 teams will likely see each other again.

 

[Shabutie]

I think Friday night was different from a variety of perspectives in a lot of games. What I am about to offer up is my opinion why play may be different Friday night from what you can expect later in the season but, it is no way intended to minimize the victors or make excuses for the losers as BOTH teams played in the same conditions and followed comparable preseason rules and I believe the deserving teams won. The heat was oppressive in a lot of places across the state and it affects players. That affect is only exacerbated if a kid has an active role going both ways. I will use the Salem game just as an example, however, I am sure similar examples can be recounted from other games around the state. Normally, players are observed bent over and grasping late in the third or fourth quarters particularly kids going both ways, but, in watching the game on TV I noted it started late in the first quarter Friday night for both teams, although Salem seemed to have a larger number. I noted the same thing at the game I actually attended in person. I doubt those weather conditions continue through the season and the situation will be further aided by developing depth and/or getting injured players back. In addition to the game I attended and watching the entire Salem game on TV, I saw highlights from multiple games around the area and state and one thing that stood out to me was what seemed to be an unusually large number of missed tackles in a lot of games and as you would expect the victors were most often the lesser offenders. I am not sure whether contact rules, teaching techniques, first game jitters, etc. are the major factor but, I would expect tackling to improve going forward. I would guess there were a lot of coaches across the state Saturday morning that, while disappointed with being saddled with a loss, were probably thinking we aren't going to play in a furnace every Friday night and if we focus on the fundamental breakdowns and working out the first game kinks we can still get where we want to go.

An interesting thing about Salem, at least when I played was that we probably did less running conditioning than any team we played against. Granted, they were much more strict about not letting players play both ways. In fact, we only had one player that was full-time both ways for the entire season. Our conditioning was 6 sprints (50 yards) at the end of practice on Monday 4 on Tuesday and 2 on Wednesday. I started on both sides of the ball the opening game of the season and was absolutely dying and game, while hot, was probably only in the low 80s.

I remember my friends at other schools asking about our conditioning and they were shocked at how little it was because there was always this idea that we did a crazy conditioning. Some of the schools nearby did 5x what we did.