Ocean Lakes...OUCH!

[shauntclair]

I do not disagree with this but if you look at that case of Zanellato transferring from a traditionally run-heavy Robinson program to a Lake Braddock team that liked to spread the field and throw the ball, it made sense from a "getting more noticed" standpoint. His numbers skyrocketed his senior year after transferring to Lake Braddock. I read an old article and it looked like he only had one offer going into his senior season, but he was eventually able to nab a bigger offer from Penn State probably as a result of his senior season production.

Senior season offers are few but they do happen. It's more likely that Zanellato was already on Penn State's board and the Lion's lost their primary targets. After all, he was 6'3", 180 and fast. Coach's just love those kind of numbers and recruiting is very much a numbers game. 40 times for RB's, WR's and DB are incredibly important. OL's that are 6'6" and 300 are gonna get looks and offers, even if they're really a Lurch. That's just today's recruiting.

He's done all he could at Penn State, I'm sure but the bottom line is he enters his last year of eligibility having caught 6 passes for 72 yards and no TD's. Even with Hackenburg. I'm glad he got the opportunity for a good education but perhaps the original evaluators of his actual potential were correct (this time). After all, players like Clay Matthews were College walk-ons. It's no exact science and no one is always right. And you could be right.

 

[DEVILSLB99]

I do not disagree with this but if you look at that case of Zanellato transferring from a traditionally run-heavy Robinson program to a Lake Braddock team that liked to spread the field and throw the ball, it made sense from a "getting more noticed" standpoint. His numbers skyrocketed his senior year after transferring to Lake Braddock. I read an old article and it looked like he only had one offer going into his senior season, but he was eventually able to nab a bigger offer from Penn State probably as a result of his senior season production.

But this is the problem I have with your argument, Lake has been destroyed on here for kids transferring. Then, you basically say that this kid transfer is for a good reason because it was to an offense that suited him better. Well these kids in the Beach might feel that the OL offense or defensive scheme fit them better so they went to Lakes. Comment was made the other day and I agree that since no one from outside the area knows the reasons for the kids transferring to OL it just chalked up to recruiting and OL playing dirty pool, but when confronted about kids transferring in areas that you know the transfers are justifiable or have a "good" reason for the transfer. Bottom line transfer is a transfer.

 

[shauntclair]

But this is the problem I have with your argument, Lake has been destroyed on here for kids transferring. Then, you basically say that this kid transfer is for a good reason because it was to an offense that suited him better. Well these kids in the Beach might feel that the OL offense or defensive scheme fit them better so they went to Lakes. Comment was made the other day and I agree that since no one from outside the area knows the reasons for the kids transferring to OL it just chalked up to recruiting and OL playing dirty pool, but when confronted about kids transferring in areas that you know the transfers are justifiable or have a "good" reason for the transfer. Bottom line transfer is a transfer.

I hear you here and understand. Based on a one for one basis, I think probably every transfer for OL is legit on paper. But we differ here in that 42% of that team is transfers. I know the District is investigating the numbers for everyone now. They are investigating everyone because that number just doesn't seem possible if something else isn't going on. What I think doesn't matter but if the entire Executive Committee for the BD finds this unusual, why don't you?

 

[DEVILSLB99]

I hear you here and understand. Based on a one for one basis, I think probably every transfer for OL is legit on paper. But we differ here in that 42% of that team is transfers. I know the District is investigating the numbers for everyone now. They are investigating everyone because that number just doesn't seem possible if something else isn't going on. What I think doesn't matter but if the entire Executive Committee for the BD finds this unusual, why don't you?

42% is damning I never said that wasn't a absurd amount of transfers. I just made the point transferring happens everywhere and when its down here then everyone (including Coach Haddock) makes comments like its just common place down there and its the wild wild west. Kids transfer for legit reasons down here all the time the same way kids do it in other parts of the state. Who knows why 42% of the kids in the OL programs transferred in after the 6th and 7th grade obviously OL has done a great job identifying talent in MS.

 

[shauntclair]

42% is damning I never said that wasn't a absurd amount of transfers. I just made the point transferring happens everywhere and when its down here then everyone (including Coach Haddock) makes comments like its just common place down there and its the wild wild west. Kids transfer for legit reasons down here all the time the same way kids do it in other parts of the state. Who knows why 42% of the kids in the OL programs transferred in after the 6th and 7th grade obviously OL has done a great job identifying talent in MS.

Kids do transfer around the State for legitimate reasons. No question about it. And I'm not going to damn any District or area without real numbers to back it up. It's all conjecture without the facts. It is my wish that every District takes responsibility and follows the BD's lead in getting these numbers.

Obviously, there are philosophical differences amongst Coach's in the State.

 

[gwb16]

The days of "Run what you brung" have very little meaning in some circles.

My youngest son was 6'-3" 260lbs as an 8th grader and I'll READILY admit that I was completely prepared to buy a house in the Phoebus District before his Sophomore year if things were looking exceptionally promising for him, but after two concussions and having a separated shoulder surgically repaired, he walked away from the gridiron. Good call on his part. I actually encouraged him to walk away.

OK, my point here is, I knew absolutely NO ONE in the Phoebus program. I did know that colleges were flocking there in droves, they were winning State Championships, multiple and I didn't need anyone to "talk to me". The "PROGRAM" spoke for itself.

Even with the risk of getting over there and finding out he couldn't seriously compete for a starting spot. He and I were prepared to take that chance in hopes that it helped his college choices and maybe lighten the load on my wallet.

42% transfers, on the outside, seems like a huge number, but it also doesn't mean that ALL 42% of those middle schoolers were encouraged to transfer to OL. Some may have just decided to make that move on their own. I don't think there is any definitive way to quantify precise numbers or who called who, or who had a beer with who at the oceanfront on Saturday night.

I do find it interesting that a few years after posts started showing up about the "handlers", this egg gets cracked. Guess that squeaky wheel got the grease after all....

 

[VaPrepsRod]

Anyone notice the 2A board where people are talking about a program benefiting from transfers "every year"?

The program being discussed is not in Tidewater.

Strange that other media sources make it a "Tidewater" problem.

 

[gwb16]

Yep, saw that also Rod. People out there in that area have been complaining about them for years also. They have a great program. Another one of those programs that have kids show up, whether induced (enticed) or on their own free will is anyone's guess!

 

[shauntclair]

Here's the bottom line of what get's me the most. Transfers happen. I understand that. Many are absolutely legitimate. Why would anyone transfer to a HS for sports? That I will never understand. There is nothing more important in raising a family than home and stability. You don't change a kid's center for Sports. If you're moving for Sports, you're moving for you, not the children. IMO.

 

[DEVILSLB99]

Here's the bottom line of what get's me the most. Transfers happen. I understand that. Many are absolutely legitimate. Why would anyone transfer to a HS for sports? That I will never understand. There is nothing more important in raising a family than home and stability. You don't change a kid's center for Sports. If you're moving for Sports, you're moving for you, not the children. IMO.

Are they really? Maybe their finances are not that great and they can't afford to send their kid to college. Maybe their son is lacking motivation at his current school and he has scholarship level potential but his HS coach isn't tapping into this potential and is just there collecting a check. So, would you move your son to a place that could get the potential out of your son that could possibly lead to him gaining some sort of scholarship to enhance his college chances. Now sure you can say its the parents fault all you want to, but this is common place. Bottom line with the way the economy is going people's bills are not equaling their pay and so they have to take risks like this with their kids to hopefully get them into a college so that they don't incur furthermore financial strain. A lot of kids in the inner city will go to a community college or maybe not even attend college so their parents or themselves aren't paying an arm and a leg to go to UVA or VT or anywhere. It's sad, but people really don't have "college funds" set up for their children anymore.

 

[gwb16]

Here's the bottom line of what get's me the most. Transfers happen. I understand that. Many are absolutely legitimate. Why would anyone transfer to a HS for sports? That I will never understand. There is nothing more important in raising a family than home and stability. You don't change a kid's center for Sports. If you're moving for Sports, you're moving for you, not the children. IMO.

I can partially agree with this, but I believe stability is home grown, you make the most of where you are, when you are, school attendance zones don't dictate stability. And IF my son wanted to give it a go across the James River Bridge...why not? I can assure you that he would have had to increase his level of discipline, commitment, effort and desire (let's call that focus). Focus isn't a bad thing. Kids and teenagers are resilient and adapt to change better than most adults, unless they are social misfits and I truthfully haven't met a high school football player that I could classify as a social misfit. Most are very outgoing socially, are liked and respected by their peers.

It's all a wash now for me, he's 22 and making his own way, without football and still living in Smithfield....funny thing is, he was a much better student while playing football, those last few years was a push. He lost some focus and was distracted with other interests. Not to say that would not have happened anyway, but it was a definite watermark in his high school career.

Transferring is kind of like the pink elephant in the room, everyone sees it, knows it but won't speak about it until they're in safe harbor and surrounded by "like" group thinkers. Life is what you make it, if you don't take risks or strategically place you and your family into a position to reach the next level, then you get what you asked for...it's easy to be safe and non-proactive, but live your life on the "what-ifs". I had a brother that threw a 95mph fastball....and he made some truly WTF decisions at 18....he's 42 now, you should hear his list of "what-ifs".

 

[shauntclair]

I can partially agree with this, but I believe stability is home grown, you make the most of where you are, when you are, school attendance zones don't dictate stability. And IF my son wanted to give it a go across the James River Bridge...why not? I can assure you that he would have had to increase his level of discipline, commitment, effort and desire (let's call that focus). Focus isn't a bad thing. Kids and teenagers are resilient and adapt to change better than most adults, unless they are social misfits and I truthfully haven't met a high school football player that I could classify as a social misfit. Most are very outgoing socially, are liked and respected by their peers.

It's all a wash now for me, he's 22 and making his own way, without football and still living in Smithfield....funny thing is, he was a much better student while playing football, those last few years was a push. He lost some focus and was distracted with other interests. Not to say that would not have happened anyway, but it was a definite watermark in his high school career.

Transferring is kind of like the pink elephant in the room, everyone sees it, knows it but won't speak about it until they're in safe harbor and surrounded by "like" group thinkers. Life is what you make it, if you don't take risks or strategically place you and your family into a position to reach the next level, then you get what you asked for...it's easy to be safe and non-proactive, but live your life on the "what-ifs". I had a brother that threw a 95mph fastball....and he made some truly WTF decisions at 18....he's 42 now, you should hear his list of "what-ifs".

Appreciate that opinion but as Rod has posted before and I have also professed, WHERE you go to school doesn't matter at all to College Coach's. You either have the goods or you don't. If you have them, they will come.

 

[shauntclair]

Are they really? Maybe their finances are not that great and they can't afford to send their kid to college. Maybe their son is lacking motivation at his current school and he has scholarship level potential but his HS coach isn't tapping into this potential and is just there collecting a check. So, would you move your son to a place that could get the potential out of your son that could possibly lead to him gaining some sort of scholarship to enhance his college chances. Now sure you can say its the parents fault all you want to, but this is common place. Bottom line with the way the economy is going people's bills are not equaling their pay and so they have to take risks like this with their kids to hopefully get them into a college so that they don't incur furthermore financial strain. A lot of kids in the inner city will go to a community college or maybe not even attend college so their parents or themselves aren't paying an arm and a leg to go to UVA or VT or anywhere. It's sad, but people really don't have "college funds" set up for their children anymore.

Always appreciate a different perspective but it doesn't change mine at all. I disagree with every point you made. We'll just leave it there.

 

[gwb16]

Appreciate that opinion but as Rod has posted before and I have also professed, WHERE you go to school doesn't matter at all to College Coach's. You either have the goods or you don't. If you have them, they will come.

No they don't, YOU have to take your kids to camps, that's where the real prospects are identified, then they might slide on over to your school and stumble on another jewel. When Dyrell Roberts was a sophomore and junior the recruiters sat together. Heavy hitters, wearing their colors. Dyrell's senior, nowhere to be seen and Smithfield had plenty of D1 & D2 "potentials", that didn't have the financial means or parental or coaching guidance to get to camps. I was there, every single week, without fail, but what do I know, YOU are the real recruiting and talent evaluating genius here on VAPREPS...

 

[gwb16]

And the PERFECT example of the recruiting fallacies, was Jordan Eason, a late bloomer, junior year 5'-10 235ish, showed up in August his senior year at 6'-3" 270ish, after the season ended, he was looking at offers from Texas Tech, Baylor and Air Force Academy, ended up being a 3 year starter for the Air Force, was Captain and named team MVP, he and Dyrell were in the same class. But...I was there, and we all know that you know what really happened.

 

[VaPrepsRod]

Just read a post on the 4A board about a Virginia team recruiting wrestlers from New jersey and Pennsylvania.

Yet, I'm constantly being told by media sources around the state about how bad things are in Tidewater.

Weird.

 

[shauntclair]

No they don't, YOU have to take your kids to camps, that's where the real prospects are identified, then they might slide on over to your school and stumble on another jewel. When Dyrell Roberts was a sophomore and junior the recruiters sat together. Heavy hitters, wearing their colors. Dyrell's senior, nowhere to be seen and Smithfield had plenty of D1 & D2 "potentials", that didn't have the financial means or parental or coaching guidance to get to camps. I was there, every single week, without fail, but what do I know, YOU are the real recruiting and talent evaluating genius here on VAPREPS...

Camps are where real prospects are identified? Not at all. There are several reasons for Camps. One is to make money on the Cattle of kids that actually have no chance. Two is the primary purpose. To evaluate those players that were actually invited. Out of the 200 there, there were probably only 30 invited. Three is the possibility of finding a gem from nowhere. It does happen. I've seen it but it is not the norm and is most often an unknown skill player who suddenly posts a 4.5 40.

The primary source for recruitment is the relationship between College Coachs and HS Coachs. It starts with a phone call and a request for video and transcripts. If the goods are there, it snowballs quickly. Camps can get you extra stars in your rating after that.

I did note your mention of one player in another post. He turned out to be a very good player for the Air Force but why do you think he had no offers as a Junior. 5'10" is NOT the goods. That's just recruiting as it is today. Not many Seniors get offers. That's because most major D1's have have almost all their kids committed before their Senior year. There ar no slots left. Again, it's just recruiting as it is today. Identify and get them early so Seniors are overlooked more often than not. The kid that went to the Airforce had to be special. Being a Football player is one thing. Meeting the Academic, personnal and physical requirements still must meet the standards. Very, very tough. Congratulations on his success.

 

[anon_vu6vqwsr4nf3b]

A lot of kids in the inner city will go to a community college or maybe not even attend college so their parents or themselves aren't paying an arm and a leg to go to UVA or VT or anywhere. It's sad, but people really don't have "college funds" set up for their children anymore.

Funny you post this, I just learned of a kid in my area going through this because his parents are refusing to pay for college so he can play football, and people in a certain "youth group" are also in his ear about it. Instead he may not go anywhere or go to PVCC. It's so sad.

 

[shauntclair]

You don't go to College to play Football and there's absolutely nothing wrong with starting in Community College. IMO. And Community College is very cheap. A full time student can work at McDonalds and pay for it. Coolest part is, if you graduate, schools like VT and UVA must accept you (B average minimum) and charge you the same cost per credit as the Community College. Great deal that few in VA take advantage of.

 

[GurskyT]

But this is the problem I have with your argument, Lake has been destroyed on here for kids transferring. Then, you basically say that this kid transfer is for a good reason because it was to an offense that suited him better. Well these kids in the Beach might feel that the OL offense or defensive scheme fit them better so they went to Lakes. Comment was made the other day and I agree that since no one from outside the area knows the reasons for the kids transferring to OL it just chalked up to recruiting and OL playing dirty pool, but when confronted about kids transferring in areas that you know the transfers are justifiable or have a "good" reason for the transfer. Bottom line transfer is a transfer.

Since I'm a nova guy, I think you are charging me with a little guilt by association here, because of the comments made by the Centreville coach in the Post article. You haven't seen me single out any of the schools in that area for athletes transferring because 1. I don't know what goes on in that area so it is not in my place to say and 2. transferring obviously has happened all over the state for a long time so I would not say that this is an issue exclusive to Ocean Lakes or that area of the state. In response to shauntclair's post, I basically did say that yes a player going to a school with an offense that suits him better may help his recruiting profile; when I replied to his post I was kind of stepping outside the main discussion about the whole issue of transferring and recruiting, more just to say that I thought it could possibly help a player get more noticed by changing schools. I think this is especially true for a wide receiver where getting more touches is important to get more game film and to become more noticed. The part that I did agree with his post was that it probably will not make a difference if you are not an impact player. In the case of Zanellato though he clearly was an impact player becoming the #1 receiver for LB, his stats made a big climb which may have helped him grab that D-1A offer from Penn State during his senior year.

We all know that if parents want to move their kids into a particular zone so they can attend the school for athletic reasons (which looked to be what Zanellato and his family did), that is up to them, but it is a decision that should be made without any outside influence. I will say that in the case of Ocean Lakes here, based on the findings and several of the media sources from down that way, it does seem obvious that people affiliated with the program were influencing kids outside of their zone to play football there. This situation is an example of how kids who transfer may not be just "transfers bottom line," because of the outside influence. So I would have to disagree with your last sentence.

 

[DinwiddieProud]

Well stated, Gursky!

 

[gwb16]

You don't go to College to play Football and there's absolutely nothing wrong with starting in Community College. IMO. And Community College is very cheap. A full time student can work at McDonalds and pay for it. Coolest part is, if you graduate, schools like VT and UVA must accept you (B average minimum) and charge you the same cost per credit as the Community College. Great deal that few in VA take advantage of.

Very true statement. I wish more kids would take advantage of that little nugget. Two years at a CC will save them TONS of money.

 

[gwb16]

Camps are where real prospects are identified? Not at all. There are several reasons for Camps. One is to make money on the Cattle of kids that actually have no chance. Two is the primary purpose. To evaluate those players that were actually invited. Out of the 200 there, there were probably only 30 invited. Three is the possibility of finding a gem from nowhere. It does happen. I've seen it but it is not the norm and is most often an unknown skill player who suddenly posts a 4.5 40.

The primary source for recruitment is the relationship between College Coachs and HS Coachs. It starts with a phone call and a request for video and transcripts. If the goods are there, it snowballs quickly. Camps can get you extra stars in your rating after that.

I did note your mention of one player in another post. He turned out to be a very good player for the Air Force but why do you think he had no offers as a Junior. 5'10" is NOT the goods. That's just recruiting as it is today. Not many Seniors get offers. That's because most major D1's have have almost all their kids committed before their Senior year. There ar no slots left. Again, it's just recruiting as it is today. Identify and get them early so Seniors are overlooked more often than not. The kid that went to the Airforce had to be special. Being a Football player is one thing. Meeting the Academic, personnal and physical requirements still must meet the standards. Very, very tough. Congratulations on his success.

And the fact that he did receive 3 offers from 3 extremely reputable Football programs, flies in the face of your incessant claim that Seniors don't get good offers. It does happen. I agree, not all that often, but it does.

Under Chris Fraser, Smithfield was 1-9, 0-10 & 1-9, Dyrell's Sophomore year, they were 9-1, Fraser took Dyrell to camps prior to his Sophomore year and UNC offered him after a camp that summer. There were NO recruiters paying The Pig Pen any visits - NONE -, prior to Dyrell getting noticed at summer camps. The spinoff from the Dyrell effect was pretty good for the rest of the team, we had numerous players that were able to continue playing, some graduated college, some didn't.

Name recognition and engaged coaching staffs, ones that have "connections" (see Chancellor), will get invites to camps, but for those kids that don't, parents either pony up for the cash cow or find a high school to play for that will help their situation. As a parent, I would do anything within the legal limits of the law or rules to help my children. No sense in living with a bunch of "what if's"...

Good discussion, even if we don't agree, still a good topic, with very strong opinions on both sides.

 

[shauntclair]

And the fact that he did receive 3 offers from 3 extremely reputable Football programs, flies in the face of your incessant claim that Seniors don't get good offers. It does happen. I agree, not all that often, but it does.

Under Chris Fraser, Smithfield was 1-9, 0-10 & 1-9, Dyrell's Sophomore year, they were 9-1, Fraser took Dyrell to camps prior to his Sophomore year and UNC offered him after a camp that summer. There were NO recruiters paying The Pig Pen any visits - NONE -, prior to Dyrell getting noticed at summer camps. The spinoff from the Dyrell effect was pretty good for the rest of the team, we had numerous players that were able to continue playing, some graduated college, some didn't.

Name recognition and engaged coaching staffs, ones that have "connections" (see Chancellor), will get invites to camps, but for those kids that don't, parents either pony up for the cash cow or find a high school to play for that will help their situation. As a parent, I would do anything within the legal limits of the law or rules to help my children. No sense in living with a bunch of "what if's"...

Good discussion, even if we don't agree, still a good topic, with very strong opinions on both sides.

I didn't say Seniors don't get good offers. I said not many Seniors get offers. It's simply a fact that about 95% of recruiting is done before a Senior starts his final season. The offers are out and the effort is to get them Committed and keep them committed until National Signing Day. The last few years, a team like UVA has everyone locked down before September 1st. That's why offers to Seniors are rare because the bigger Colleges are already looking at next year's crop of Sophomores and Juniors.

I'm sorry recruiters didn't come to Smithfield but recruiters don't just come to random places hoping to find something. They come when there's something to see and they get that information from the Coach. Dyrell was an excellent example. The Coach took him. This was no random act. UNC knew he was coming. No doubt, they already knew his grade status, his physical attributes and saw video. The camp was for confirmation and to pass the final eye test.

Folks would really save themselves a lot of time if they took the first logical step and approached their own Coach and had a simple and frank discussion of whether or not they could play at the next level. If so, what level would that be and what would he have to do to make that happen. Not taking this first step and running around to random camps because Pop's thinks you have the goods is both a waste of time and money with nothing but disappointment at the end of the road.

I do agree, I would do anything to help my children. But I would do research and ask for some knowledgable assistance from the Coach on best process and feasibility.

It has been an interesting discussion and thanks for posting your opinion.