(Roanoke Times) Timesland Defense 1st team, 2nd team, Sizzlin Sophomores
- Thread starter mike salem
- Start date
As I thought, all previous selections were given poor information regarding D. Ramsey. He posts amazing numbers and mysteriously makes exactly zero previous selection teams. Robert Anderson has proper info and makes correct selection. Kid got screwed out of some serious postseason recognition but c'est la vie.
When you get 14.5 sacks in 13 games (most games only played till half) you are doing something right. The Ramsey brothers were the bookends of the defense. Riley Fox was superior at MLB as well. I think the stats got mixed up for a couple of players and Deangelo got the short end of the stick.
Salem's defense was the reason they won the title and #38 was a huge part of that success. I haven't seen that kind of speed burst from a HS DE in a long time and Alex was a close 2nd, not bad considering his 15 extra lbs of muscle. The Ramsey brothers have extremely good bursts of speed for that first 15 yards or so. Howell did a great job converting from a LB position to a DT. Tyler Close did a great job at LB as well, I wish he had received recognition on one of the lists because he was one of the top tacklers on a great defensive squad. Very proud of all of their accomplishments this year and they all worked hard and won the ultimate recognition as a team!
Salem got it done. They played a perfect game with a perfect game plan. They executed and then hung on. They needed to against a talent laden LT and the D was the story. Salem did not allow a big play and that was the unexpected difference.
But Spartans lose this game 8 out of 10 times. IMO. No disrespect.
But Spartans lose this game 8 out of 10 times. IMO. No disrespect.
You know if you were talking about the 2014 title game participants I would agree and probably wouldn't disagree if you raised the frequency to 9 out of 10 bowing to the "any given day" theory. For 2015 I am not prepared to go as far as 8 out of 10 and I see the matchup, after watching the game live in person, as much more of a 50/50 proposition. LT clearly had the more celebrated stars and if there was a contest for just getting off the bus their look would win the majority of the time but, to be cliché, that is why they play the game. Salem, albeit undersized, was superior in interior line play on both sides of the ball, in my opinion, despite the LT "stars" and LT's youth at the quarterback position was a factor compared to the play of the Salem QB. Of course, some may also attribute that to the Salem staff having a better plan for their QB. I am not going to get in to the kicking games other than to say that no matter how good a team is the kicking game can get them beat if not effectively executed. Regardless of one's opinion and the outcome, I think most would agree it was a very entertaining game to watch and both squads(players and coaches) deserve props for the show they put on. I personally would pay to see a game like that any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
I don't know if you can attribute it to being given bad information and I believe a reasonable argument can be made that both Ramseys were deserving of more postseason recognition than they received prior to the All Timesland voting. Please note this is in no way intended to say that the actual players named were not deserving. Having said that, Anderson did have better info because he had more in person exposure but, the real issue is that regional and all state voting is just a different process and subject to certain inherent biases that are difficult to overcome regardless of how the process is structured. Best line I ever heard from a coach when asked about the regional/all state voting process was that the real vote and most important one took place the first Wednesday in February every year.
I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it. It's an opinion piece and a popularity contest, just like most "best of" lists that come from newspapers covering large areas. It's done to sell papers.
I do have to agree with just about everything you said.
The LT QB did not have a good day. He did not have more than one or two completions on the day because of a good throw. The receivers did most of the work because they were so talented but got little YAC due to being so badly out of position when they made a catch. A few "in stride" completions could have made a big difference. Just as a QB reference, the Salem QB only completed 4 passes on the day but he did make some very good, veteran type decisions.
The Salem D and Coaching was the difference. Also, LT's many two way players wore down. That was also key for Salem.
I thought LT could be beaten. They had many close games this past season. They were not as dominant as a 2013 Dinwiddie or 2012 Briar Woods. There were weaknesses. What always pulled them out was their Special Athletes. I expected that to happen again. I expected Salem would grind, play well and score some points. Based on LT's not being stopped from making a big play only once in two years, I picked the Titans. I thought that would be the difference but the Spartans thought otherwise.
This was a Mag's moment. Salem could not have been more prepared. Every Spartan that stepped on the field had the eye of the Tiger right out of the chute and maintained it all game. Plus, they caught a break. That is very, very rare. You may have this as even and make a good argument for the choice. I'll still opinion LT 8 out of 10.
It was a great game.
I thought LT played extremely conservative early on. In the 1Q they punted from Salem's 35 on 4th down. The distance may have been moderate, but the punt went for a touchback and only netted 15 yards. They could have picked up the 1st down or even a TD. Just put the ball in your play makers hands and see what happens. Worst case scenario, you give up the ball in the territory where most HS drives start anyway.
They did want to run. That was clear and, yes, the punt was questionable but it was also a bit of respect to Salem. The Spartan D was yielding nothing. It was pin Salem deep or surrender more momentum by not making it. Coach's choice. I agree with you. It was early and I would have gone for it with the players and field position LT had. But hindsight is easy.
All credit here Mike. Most State Championships are won because of very special players that give them the edge. Spartans won because they were a special team with a special Coach. I'll take that any day.
I'm kinda sure they did get the wrong info. So what happens is Shaq Howell gets the coaches nod and the Va Preps nod as well and D. Ramsey is nowhere to be seen on either list(not even VP's underclassmen list and it's nutso not to have him on that at least, he's going to get FBS offers in 2 years he's that good) and then the local paper comes out and Ramsey and Howell are flip-flopped.
Ramsey was better than Howell on D. He just was. He posted better numbers, he was visibly better on the field and any Salem fan who watched this year would tell you the same. I'm not denigrating Howell's performance(honors-worthy) or contribution to the team, I'm simply saying Ramsey had the better year and I think, quite simply, his stats were attributed to Howell and vice-versa when they sat down to make coaches choices(no clue where Va Preps got their stats but I'd bet money they aren't the correct ones you see in the Times article above).
If you want to be really frank I think Ramsey outplayed everyone on D save maybe Fox and even then I think I could make an argument but for a sophomore to go 82 tackles, 8.5 TFL, 14.5 sacks and get ZERO post-season recognition until now isn't just wrong, it's clearly wrong and it reeks of a mistake somewhere along the way. I'm not saying this was done maliciously, I think it just makes sense that his stats and Howell's were switched(D. Ramsey ranked 2nd in tackles, 2nd in TFL, 1st in sacks, 1st in knockdowns, and 1st in FF for the best D in the state as just a sophomore) because I had no expectation of Ramsey being ignored and Howell getting all the honors, I thought it would be exactly the opposite.
There were others on the defense with remarkable stats who didn't get recognized either. I vote for the entire defense to be POY!
Tyler Close #34 deserved recognition on one of these lists. He was one of the leading tacklers from his LB spot. Quinn & Wade did a good job in the secondary as Sophomores. The defense won the Championship, it's a shame they all couldn't be recognized. That's why I'm so glad they won the title and were recognized as a team with rings, parades, ceremonies, city honors, and team awards. Some of the younger guys will get the opportunity to work hard and leave their mark as this team did. Best of all excelling in the classroom and on the field will benefit them down the road as they have learned the importance of individual preparation and working together as a team are important building blocks for future success.
Last edited:
How many times do I have to post this stuff. STATS HAVE A PLACE BUT WEIGH LITTLE IN THESE DECISIONS! Stop saying they swapped the numbers because IF they were in the folder, they barely saw the light of day. D's good. Frankly, I felt he was THE definitive defensive player in the BIG games against JF and LT. His time will come. IMO.
Slamming your capslock key doesn't make you right and like I said, for him to be left off the VP list entirely(underclassmen as well) it's obvious neither the coaches nor the VP guys got the right info, especially when they made a similar puzzling selection.
Of course CAP locks doesn't make me right. Years of experience with this does. If these selections were based on STATs alone, you would end up with a team of "who the hell is that? Never heard of him. His squad was 1 - 9. How did he get on the team? His school played no one."
It's the eye test and Seniority. Years of service and exceptional play over time. The Coach's got every bit of info they required and it was accurate. VAPreps is more thorough but their list is also damn close to the Coach's. There's are reason for this.
Stats are used for some of the final selections to support an argument. But you don't get to the final list by stats at all and better stats don't make an automatic winner. For example, an All-State JR Dlineman is going to receive a heck of a lot of attention as a Senior. Because his stats will go down due to constant double teams and running away from him, is he no longer an All-State player? An entire game plan is contrived to nullify his capabilities but by your definition, an unknown with better stats should superceed him. Ludicrous. I don't care if you don't believe that but it is how it is. Doesn't make it the right way and you could argue against it. I understand that point. I like D Ramsey too. I've already said that. He's a player I would want even if, currently, he's a tweener. His time will come.
It does stink and I know the feeling. I was victim of an even worse snubbing years ago.
You mentioned the eye test but if you use the eye test he was clearly the second best player on that defense and was dominant in the biggest games.
Sounds as a contradiction. "2nd best player on defense but dominant in the biggest games." I won't fight the opinion but will request a clarification of this one.
Just to clarify the previous post, in Shabutie's opinion DeAngelo was the 2nd best player on Defense overall, but in the big games at critical moments he rose to the occasion even more, dominating his opponent and adversely affecting the opponent's game plan. No contradiction. Hopefully I got that right, Shabutie?
Last edited:
I respectfully disagree about selection not being influenced by a player's publicity. It is known the Spartan defense was one of the best in 4A. Several players were not noted who were great contributors to that defense. Nick Hood made key stops during the season and more importantly during the post season. Tyler Close had over 100 tackles at MLB. He racked up 14 tackles against JF alone. D. Ramsey, he was a force (that's been discussed.) Kenneth McCauley was another strong force on the Dline. All names that were not widely publicized for one reason or another. If the media, paper, radio announcer, etc...talks about a kid, coaches outside of the area know the name and tend to vote for them. Hood, Close, and McCauley were all seniors. There will not be another chance. The good part, though, is these boys are humble and don't need the public recognition for their efforts. They were proud to represent their Spartans and are state champs! So, I will recognize them here! I'd want them on my first or second team defense for sure!
Last edited:
So who was the better defender? You already know the answer. IYO. Also remember the Coach's list is made BEFORE the playoffs.
Because stats don't matter, take this into consideration. D was a Sophomore. No one knew him before this season. Salem does not play a strong schedule. Unlike other teams, he probably sat a lot of second half time. Coach's saw him for the first time.
The most important thing is it's just a list. Means nothing from a life perspective. Just a clip from the newspaper that Daddy will keep on his desk at work.
Point taken but Salem played a weak schedule. How could they expect notoriety or recognition? A team like LT has sure DI players. Real studs that can play next level. Salem won as a true team with fine players and exceptional Coaching but this was a "on any given day" game. Few, if any, DI talent. But the Spartan's did it. I'll take that over the studs every time.
They won. Go home and be happy.
The teams were very close. It wasn't a "any given day" game or any of that 8/10 nonsense.
Salem won the game because they played better as a team and their coaching did a better job of play calling. I thought LT was very conservative at times, playing not to lose. Salem had less yards, but on big plays they would make the 1st down or punt and play for defense. Seemed like Salem coaches did a better job of reading the game. I think if LT had it to do over again they would have put the ball in #8 Davis' hands more in the OT sessions especially. Just my 2 cents.
Like I said, a lot of the time it ends up being a popularity contest. Over the years I've seen plenty of athletes (and coaches) overlooked for recognition they deserved because some coach or AD had a beef with some other coach or AD. And as for saying the player with the best stats shouldn't be recognized as the best, I'll disagree. It should be based on stats, but those stats should include something that takes strength of schedule into consideration. Just like ratings/rankings, make a mathematical formula that takes all human influence out of it. Nobody will, because it would be an incredible amount of work to do it, but that would be the only real way to get the best recognized like they deserve. Until then it shall remain nothing more or less than a popularity contest or some writers opinion.
Like, I'm not disagreeing about the coaches' team at all with regards to it being less objective and way more subjective but my point was tied up in Ramsey not existing in any form on the Va Preps team either(the VP team being a generic all-whatever list not a coaches' team situation where wheeling and dealing might occur) and Howell being in the exact same spot. I don't see how you could ignore Ramsey for at the very least an underclassman list but that's just me and Rod/VP are entitled to their opinions.
Then you look at the local guy(Robert Anderson knows SWVA football very, very well, he's tremendously knowledgeable) and Ramsey was on his 1st team and it makes you think some wires got crossed along the way. If Anderson had more or less ignored Ramsey then I wouldn't have made an argument because I'd just chalk it up to my own mistake but it's just not the case.
This is just argumentative anyway, I'm just positing a guess as to why something happened. Again, I don't think this was malicious, just trying to pass some offseason time I guess.
Then you look at the local guy(Robert Anderson knows SWVA football very, very well, he's tremendously knowledgeable) and Ramsey was on his 1st team and it makes you think some wires got crossed along the way. If Anderson had more or less ignored Ramsey then I wouldn't have made an argument because I'd just chalk it up to my own mistake but it's just not the case.
This is just argumentative anyway, I'm just positing a guess as to why something happened. Again, I don't think this was malicious, just trying to pass some offseason time I guess.
All due respect Dave. Players are not recruited by stats. Why should they be selected for recognition by stats? They clearly do not define the best player at the position.
Also, if Colleges wanted the best players, wouldn't someone have developed this formula already for their recruiting endeavors? Certainly not too hard for a University full of Math Majors and Professors.
IMO, if recruiting were based on stats, College Football would be significantly diminished. That's the philosophy of the All-State lists. All that said, there is Billy Ball and it has worked. Until someone uses it successfully for Football, the eye test remains the rule.
Last edited:
But it impossible to get a clear picture of a player with the "eye test" at only a few games...
Actually, next level eye test is quite brief and pretty obvious. If it's not obvious, it's not next level. Multiple games are not required. If it's not clear by half time, it's not next level.
Malcolm Gladwell's book "Blink" covers this area quite nicely
The eye test can be applied pretty quickly, certainly in one game, maybe even one half. However, in my opinion, it is much more useful in "weeding out" prospects than selecting prospects. Selection, to be certain, works better with multiple looks. In relation to this thread, the younger Ramsey already passes the eye test and I would expect with continued development that evaluation will be even more of a slam dunk. People with a much better handle on Salem history than me can offer a better perspective but, there probably hasn't been this much regard for a Salem prospect by college scouts since Marcus Parker pre-knee injury.
Last edited:
Recruiting is for colleges. Rewards for high school accomplishments should be for the best high school players. The fact or belief that some kid may or may not be developed into some major college prospect should have no bearing on high school rewards. Either they are the best high school players or they are not. Sometimes that best player is 5'10" and 165 pounds dripping wet. How many names can you come up with that were rewarded for what they were "expected" to be? I could name plenty. Just my opinion, but if the kid is good enough, he'll have the stats to back it.
You had me till the bolded part. They were expected to be next level players because their play was so superior on the field that they clearly stood out. Yes, there are lots of 5'10" kids that grind their butts off and are appreciated by all. They accumulate enough stats to back them up for acknowledgement but this is true of many HS players because these "grinders" make up the majority of HS players. This is why stats mean next to nothing during the selection process. Nor should they.
There are just too many examples of kids with lesser stats that are clearly the best players on the field. Great WR's on running teams. 37 receptions on the year. 4 TD's. 353 yds. But 3 star athletes that are clearly exceptional and worth the price of a ticket. DE's that spend their last year's double teamed, game planned for and run away from will never have the best stats but are game changers and impact players regardless. Again, clearly the best on the field but won't get the stats. With all due respect to the grinders.
