VHSL considering ways to shorten football season
- Thread starter mike salem
- Start date
The football season is too short as it is. I’d personally like to see VHSL do what NC does and play an 11 game season. Give teams an extra week and gives teams the option to count the benefit game. Make the playoffs harder to get into and have it mandated that you play at least 4 teams from your region during the season. Make it meaningful again.
I would be VERY much in favor of reducing the post-season from five to four weeks. It would help make the term "playoff team" meaningful again.
As would I. But you know how the VHSL thinks.. more playoffs, more $$$ for them. Sadly.
Do away with the Bye weeks, eliminate 2 regular season games and have the season over with by Thanksgiving. Another idea would be to put back like it was when I was in high school. Play 10 games. Put the pads away and have the season over with by November 1. This would eliminate a lot of the stupid crap people are doing to try and win a state championship.
From the posted article, the four "options" listed, along with my comments and priorities (if I was VHSL King for a day):
- Eliminating one week of the preseason and one preseason scrimmage. Priority #3-football is a sport heavily dependent on TEAM (and unit) execution and synchronization. Removing a scrimmage and a week of practice is foolish. Then there is also the conditioning. I know teams do summer conditioning, but it is more along the lines of maintenance than true conditioning to prepare athletes for the rigors of a live game.
- Playing a nine-week regular season. Priority #4-as the article said, this impacts athletic budgets and home/away balance.
- Eliminating the bye week and compressing the regular season to 10 weeks. Priority #1-absolutely no need for a bye week (and going back to this would alleviate 67% of what I mention below about season overlap).
- Cutting the playoffs back from five games to four games. Priority #2-yes, some good/deserving teams will probably get left out, but teams under .500 making it in is ridiculous.
I also dismiss the argument that the current season length interferes with winter sports. Sure, a team making the state semis will probably have a few athletes show up to winter sports practice a week or two late. You might lose a few fans. But with only four teams per division in this position, and only 12 out of 317 playing a second week, the affect is miniscule. I would think most kids would gladly give up a few days of winter sports practice and maybe a game or two for the opportunity to win a state championship, if their team is fortunate enough to be in that position.
- Eliminating one week of the preseason and one preseason scrimmage. Priority #3-football is a sport heavily dependent on TEAM (and unit) execution and synchronization. Removing a scrimmage and a week of practice is foolish. Then there is also the conditioning. I know teams do summer conditioning, but it is more along the lines of maintenance than true conditioning to prepare athletes for the rigors of a live game.
- Playing a nine-week regular season. Priority #4-as the article said, this impacts athletic budgets and home/away balance.
- Eliminating the bye week and compressing the regular season to 10 weeks. Priority #1-absolutely no need for a bye week (and going back to this would alleviate 67% of what I mention below about season overlap).
- Cutting the playoffs back from five games to four games. Priority #2-yes, some good/deserving teams will probably get left out, but teams under .500 making it in is ridiculous.
I also dismiss the argument that the current season length interferes with winter sports. Sure, a team making the state semis will probably have a few athletes show up to winter sports practice a week or two late. You might lose a few fans. But with only four teams per division in this position, and only 12 out of 317 playing a second week, the affect is miniscule. I would think most kids would gladly give up a few days of winter sports practice and maybe a game or two for the opportunity to win a state championship, if their team is fortunate enough to be in that position.
I’d like to see where the drop in football participation is, by region in VA. I think we’d find that football is becoming less popular in more affluent communities, ceding to sports like lacrosse. I’d also like to see if concussions continue to push families towards choosing alternative sports. I, for one, still value football for the dedication and responsibility it requires. And, good coaching, I think, provides a good answer to those worried about concussions. And, concussions can happen in just about any sport. In my opinion, the treatment of concussions is as important as the prevention. Aside from this, football continues to be the most popular sport from childhood through the professional level. Unless there is an effort to reduce the number of sub-500 record teams in the playoffs, then leave the current model alone.
Maybe not what a lot would want to hear, but a system of four group classifications with eight football divisions could be an option. An eight division system with four playoff rounds would have 128 teams, a reduction from the maximum 192 under the current arrangement. Assuming other sports don't have divisions, the championship competition would be much less diluted than it is now.
You are advocating for eight, vice the current six championships? I think that is the wrong direction to go. Given the number of schools in VA (currently 317) the number of classifications should be reduced to four, maybe five. Six classes dilutes the playoff field too much resulting in the current situation. I know that does not resolve the length of season issue, but adding two more classes is not the way to go, IMO.
One question that I have from the article, how does basing your classification change if you are looking at grades 9-11? That seems illogical unless combined with some other measures being discussed. My personal opinion is that there needs to be 4 classifications with roughly the same amount of teams in each grouping and the student population number falls where it falls to determine the classification. Take the smallest 79 and group them, then the next 79 and so on to get to 4 divisions. Flip the points system on its head and include SOS so playing quality opponents OOD matter more (split districts need to be looked at but in some cases cant be avoided). Switch the playoff format back splitting the state East and West then take the top 16 in each side. Cross bracket the semis at a neutral site but slightly closer to the higher ranked team as they would have performed well enough to not have to make the bigger trip or even equal distance. It takes away a complete home field but rewards their season as well. In addition to all those changes, eliminate the bye week and start a week earlier. Yes its still hot but move game start times to 8P since the vast majority are played on Friday night. Of course all these things would only take place if I were king, lol.
I wouldn't say that I'm advocating it, but I can see it as addressing the concerns as articulated by the VHSL director particularly if paired with no bye weeks. (My own personal opinion is that 3 group classifications is the right size for basically all other sports and that 6 divisions is fine for football.) I would not prefer having 8 champions, but the playoffs overall would be less diluted with 128 teams (~40% of all schools) versus the 192 teams (~60%, ignoring byes) now. I doubt that reducing the playoffs to 96 teams overall in a 6 division, 4 round playoff would be acceptable since only ~30% of all schools would participate.
North Carolina currently has 8 champions. Virginia's population has increased from ~6 million in 1986 when the 6 division format was established to ~8 million now, so the number of champions per capita would be roughly the same.
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I don't know. Maybe it's because of students dropping out of school or not playing sports as seniors if they're not a starting player.
Just left our region meeting and this came up and has been talked about for months. Couple of points that have been made:
1. Eliminating a scrimmage will get rid of the first scripted scrimmage, but in its place they will allow you to have practices with another team to "scrimmage" or "thud" without it counting as a scrimmage
2. Shortening the season to 9 games actually is what the NFHS suggested as this is the case around most of the country our 10 game scheudle and NC's 11 game schedule are on the high end nationally according to the NFHS.
3. 9-11 ADM numbers have been used for years. They use the March numbers. They don't count grade 12 because of the number of kids that are January graduates or in programs that allow them to be dual enrolled. We have a HUGE population of dual enrolled kids at my school and by the second semester you barely see any seniors on campus.
1. Eliminating a scrimmage will get rid of the first scripted scrimmage, but in its place they will allow you to have practices with another team to "scrimmage" or "thud" without it counting as a scrimmage
2. Shortening the season to 9 games actually is what the NFHS suggested as this is the case around most of the country our 10 game scheudle and NC's 11 game schedule are on the high end nationally according to the NFHS.
3. 9-11 ADM numbers have been used for years. They use the March numbers. They don't count grade 12 because of the number of kids that are January graduates or in programs that allow them to be dual enrolled. We have a HUGE population of dual enrolled kids at my school and by the second semester you barely see any seniors on campus.
That sounds awful.
Competing for legitimate championships is one of the best parts of playing and watching sports.
VHSL can't be very smart they still play three state championships games at the same time.Talk about having your head in the sand. Play two games Thursday two Friday and two Saturday.
That doesn't change to less weeks. That would just be 2 teams getting a bye.
As for others posts, aside from a few blowouts, what is the downside of KIDS playing an extra game? Most will be done after high school. And as for winter sports, unless I am mistaken, some players not playing to begin the season isn't going to cost teams a chance of playoffs and beyond.
Some of these games will give a kid an opportunity to move on to the next level.
And I have said it before when multiple days thing has been brought up, how do you decide which team plays what day? Its not just about the lost school time, but less practice, smaller crowds, area/school size bias, etc.
@VAtuffTurf Kids have to pay to play? That alone is a reason families won’t want their kids participating in athletics. It’s also a good reason to transfer kids with college football potential. What schools, specifically, do you know of that require pay to play? This alone would kill football.
In my home state of New Jersey which also has quite a few high schools the season was shortened to 9 games and the regular season ends the first week of November. The Championship games already ended a week and a half ago. Their point system includes a strength of schedule to seed. The Virginia system is too long and is archaic.
I believe they are going to look at 9-11 numbers because they do the ADM enrollment numbers at least one year in advance so the students in the senior class will not actually still be in school when those schools are playing in their respective classification. You can't move it down and do 8-11, because sometimes middle school split up into different high schools and their is often an influx or exodus of kids in 9th grade from private schools.
9-11 gives you a more accurate depiction of the current enrollment as opposed to one big/small senior class skewing the data for a time when they are already gone. Plus as one poster said, some schools now have some seniors who are done after the first semester.
In talking to Shawn Knight one thing he discussed is the fact that our playoffs end so late. In a perfect world for him our state championship game would be played Thanksgiving weekend which would probably increase attendance as well. This would be accomplished by moving the season up a week (which is an option) starting in July to also coincide with the fact that a lot of school divisions are now starting before Labor Day, but also eliminating a week from the season or shortening the playoffs to 4 games. That would give us a state championship played Thanksgiving weekend. Again this is what Shawn Knight would prefer.
The weekend that families potentially travel is the most logical weekend to hold the biggest event for that sport? Its also the Tech/UVA game weekend which will pull support. You wont get the casual fan that weekend but all the parents will be there if that's all they want. I can see one side or the other of that weekend but cant buy it would be a good idea to have on that weekend. Not trying to shoot the messenger just trying to point out that most people have a different priority that weekend unless they are die hard fans or have athletes in it.
This is straight from the Frederick County Public Schools website.
-Sherando
-James Wood
-Millbrook
Pay to Participate
What is a "pay to participate" fee?
In 2011, the school board implemented a "pay to participate" fee for high school student-athletes. The fee is $75 per student, per sport.
What does the "pay to participate" fee fund?
The "pay to participate" fee helps to cover the cost of the athletic training services offered to all high school student-athletes.
Does paying the "pay to participate fee" mean all team members will receive playing time?
There is no relationship between "pay to participate" fees and a guarantee of student playing time. Playing time for athletes is at the sole discretion of the head coach and his/her staff.
Do students serving as managers have to pay the "pay to participate" fee?
The "pay to participate" fee applies to all Virginia High School League athletic activities. Students serving as managers are not required to pay the fee.
What happens if financial circumstances make it difficult for a student to pay the "pay to participate" fee?
Students and/or families whose financial circumstances make it difficult for them to pay the fee should contact the school principal to determine options that may exist to address the situation.
When is the "pay to participate" fee due?
Students who tryout and become an official team member will be required to pay the fee prior to the first official contest date in order to remain on the team.
How can a student pay the "pay to participate" fee?
"Pay to participate" fees may be paid using the FCPS Online School Payment System or through the bookkeeper at the student's school.
What happens to a student who fails to pay the "pay to participate" fee?
Students who fail to pay the fee will not be allowed to remain on the team.
Are refunds available for students who are injured during the season or who are dismissed from or quit the team?
No. "Pay to participate" fees are non-refundable.
VT and UVA have both requested that the Friday game stops, I believe that'll start next year just FWIW.
In my
In the New Jersey scenario that about the same number of HS football teams as Virginia (and attendance is quite good) they held their Championship games over three days- Friday, Saturday and Sunday/ November 29-30 and December 1, all at college fields and for larger schools at Met Life Stadium, home to NY Giants and Jets. Games went from late morning to early evening. No complaints at all on Thanksgiving weekend and excellent attendance. This schedule allowed fans to attend multiple games. One thing Vitginia will need to change is the archaic no Sunday rule for playoff games- ok for regular season.
Well 1, that depends on how you choose to spend your Sunday (and the "values" of VHSL), 2 just 2 years ago the State championships WERE on Sunday
some interesting Four Classification models and chatter
https://virginiapreps.forums.rivals...ications-in-the-next-cycle.65519/#post-375133
https://virginiapreps.forums.rivals...ications-in-the-next-cycle.65519/#post-375133
The attendance at LU was sub par. Hopewell and LB had a decent crowd but nothing like what I remember. Sad
4 divisions would be mind numbingly stupid. 6 is exactly where it should be, the sites are fine (or as fine as they'll get, they work perfect for 1A, 2A, 5A, and 6A). if you want a shorter season, remove a scrimmage and one PO game, if not then leave it the hell alone.
Christ almighty, there is nothing worse than people crying and complaining about VHSL playoffs and then the VHSL doing their dumbest to make things worse. Just leave it alone for like 40 years and if you're still alive in 2060 then you get a say on how things should change.
Christ almighty, there is nothing worse than people crying and complaining about VHSL playoffs and then the VHSL doing their dumbest to make things worse. Just leave it alone for like 40 years and if you're still alive in 2060 then you get a say on how things should change.
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Sorry, the current locations do not work "perfectly" for D5/D6, unless you live in the Beach area, or maybe RVA.
The blogster for LT and Tusky said the crowd was very thin. Distance from home matters. If these finals were played at a neutral field close to the top seed attendance would be far better. With Botetcourt only 45 minutes from Lynchburg LU makes sense. Not class 4. Alert!! Lynchburg is not in the middle of Virginia.
@falcettik . Your comment made me wonder. With Hampton(Darling), Newport News(Todd), Richmond(City), Lynchburg(City), Salem(Salem) and at one time Roanoke (Victory Stadium) all having stand alone stadiums capable of hosting state championship games. Has Fairfax or Prince William County ever thought about building a large municipal stadium that could be used by all schools and in turn be able to bid to host state championship? Northern Virginia has a couple schools that have big enough stadiums but with all the money that's thrown around up north, has this ever been debated or considered? Been a long time since any state championships have been played in 703/571.
Unfortunately, none really. There are a few stadiums that could hold the crowds I have seen in the past decade but the parking nearby could not come close to holding that many fans:
WT Woodson, maybe 10-12K but parking is only good for about 10% of that.
Centreville 7-8K with parking for maybe half to three quarters of that if the neighborhood streets are used.
Westfield 6,200 seated (but I have seen 8K years ago with standing around the fence); parking would be adequate only if nearby office building lots were made available, certainly not a given.
Most other NOVA schools seat perhaps 3-4K max so they are really not viable options. And with no collegiate football programs in the area (NOVA) there just aren't any stadiums.
I honestly don't know if that has been considered, but the main consideration is where do you put it? The area is so saturated that taking enough ground to build such a stadium, with its associated parking areas (because public trans is not going to be available, like for the Nationals complex) is nigh on impossible. Then you would have to also find a tenant team and there really aren't any. Some people clamor for George Mason to start a football team and build a stadium but I don't see that happening any time soon, if ever.
I would even prefer to go JMU (I am guessing with the success of JMU's team that facility would never be offered), or back to Richmond or UVA. But with the way Virginia demographics are and where VHSL schools are located there is really no good option. I understand that, just wish the location would be more centralized.
I know Fairfax is quite landlocked. Loudoun and Prince William both have some pockets of land still available. With UVa's new AD and their trying to make football important again, I think we may see them jump back into the VHSL championships for football. I know the VHSL prefers the turf fields for obvious reasons but Scott Stadium is a great venue and parking is adequate. Much closer for NOVA folks than Hampton, probably same distance as Richmond. I know NOVA folks get tired of having to travel to Hampton/Richmond every year.
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