That would take some research to provide a decent answer. We'd have to weigh schedules, players, redistricting, offensive schemes, Coachs, etc. All play a role. I'll see what I can do.
Hungry Like The Wolf
- Thread starter SpartanOfYore
- Start date
Nope Shaunty, I only say positive stuff about people I respect. When I don't make comments about someone, you can assume the opposite.
Thanks for the correction! I just had a brain cramp for a second. It would be interesting to hear others takes on the areas they are familiar with either in general or in the context of specific schools. Would love to get your take as well as Spartan of Yore or others from the Roanoke Valley. Off the top of my head I cannot think of many, if any, schools in the Valley where the recent versions are clearly superior to their counterparts. Northside might be the most viable candidate for that discussion.
Sorry, you simply reinforce disingenuous and female. It's been my experience they usually come as a pair. But you have my respect for still trying and stimulating discussions.
Thanks, will be interested to see what you come up with. As an aside, I didn't really view it as a take home research assignment as much as a gut feel and what your eyes, local knowledge tell you from actually watching the games.
Appreciate that but it's a research paper in that I can't really go past 2000 for this area. I can review the last ten pretty easily but I have to research anything prior and that was the request. I also have to set the timelines for the new schools, district redefinitions and how it impacted the player pool. The Burg blew up in growth since 95' and has not stopped. Affordability and reasonable commute to DC made it so. Population continues to increase rapidly. Highly desirable area. New developments every year. New schools frequently.
Interesting question. My short answer - I agree that, in general, high school football teams of the past decade are not clearly better than their predecessors.
Now for the full-bodied, long-winded response. Of course, my answer only encompasses the teams that I've actually seen in person. Since I'm a dedicated fan of one team, that further limits it to Salem, and the teams they've played. The Spartans usually manage to go pretty far in the postseason, so by attending those playoff games, I have gotten some first-hand exposure to good and excellent teams from around the state.
Let's start with the most narrow sample size, that being Salem. Overall, I don't think one can say the Spartan squads of the past decade are markedly superior to teams of ten to thirty years ago. We have been quite blessed here; we had good teams then, and we still have good teams now. The offenses of the past three years have been elite level, for 4A. Much of the credit for that should go to Lewie Pitts, the offensive coordinator, and to coach Magenbauer, who I believe does most of the work with the O-linemen. Salem's had an abundance of talented skill position players the last few years, as well, which is due to a little luck. It's probably due in greater measure to all the work the coaches and kids put in, beginning at Andrew Lewis Middle School. The 2014 Spartan squad happened to have one of the two or three best passers, (Coulling), one of the three or four top receivers (Parker), and one of the top two rushers (C. Fox) in school history. All seniors on the same squad.
But while Salem's offenses have taken off in recent years, I don't necessarily think they've been better than the best Salem offenses prior to 2006. The squads in '91, '92, '98, '99, and '04, to name a few, were all very strong on the offensive side of the ball. They just didn't score as many points as the most recent Spartans. On the other side of the ball is where I would give a definite nod to Salem teams of yesteryear. In general, the squads under Willis White's regime were consistently tougher, and just better, on defense than almost all of coach Magenbauer's teams have been. Don't get me wrong; Salem's been pretty good on D since 2004, most years. But coach White lived and breathed defense. It was the bedrock of his philosophy. White's best defenses could not only manage to contain an opposing elite offense; they would usually shut it down.
I thought that was the difference in last year's Salem team from probably all of coach M's previous Spartan teams: finally, there was an elite defense to go along with a high-octane offense. A defense capable of shutting down an elite offense.
So that's my view of Salem, then and now. We've been very fortunate to have one of those rare programs that's been able to maintain a very high standard of play for more than thirty years now. With peaks at roughly equal heights spaced out along the way. Broadening the focus to all of the schools in the Roanoke and New River Valleys that Salem plays regularly, I actually think that the overall quality of play has declined in the past decade or so.
Salem has been very good the last few years, but the paucity of tough opponents has been startling. And by tough, I mean "able to stay in the game for more than one half." In reference to the routine blowouts, I mostly jokingly asked one of the Andrew Lewis coaches last season, "Is Salem that good, or is everyone else that bad?" His response was, "Mostly, everyone else stinks." Before anyone takes offense, let me stress that we were talking about local teams.
But the phenomenon doesn't seem to be limited to this part of the state. I follow all the scores from around the state, and keep up with things as best I can through VaPreps, Gilliam, and VHSL-Reference. It seems as if every geographic region might have one or two really good teams (in certain classifications), accompanied by a collection of pretty weak teams. I will not name names (don't need that hassle!), but there are a few examples I could cite of schools whose fans on VaPreps regularly boast about how hard their schedules are. When in reality, it's the same as what we're seeing around here - one or two opponents might be formidable, but the rest just really aren't that great.
All of which leads me to believe that the cream still rises to the top, and the best teams are still excellent, regardless of where in the Old Dominion they call home. But below that top level, across the state there is a lack of competitiveness and toughness that just didn't exist fifteen or twenty years ago. Which in large part explains why teams of yore from Salem, or wherever didn't ring up the lopsided scores that the strongest teams have on a regular basis the last few years. Because in general, most schools fielded better, more competitive, more fundamentally sound and talented teams. The scores from the archives seem to indicate that, but more importantly, the ol' eyeball test confirms it. For me, at any rate.
Finally, shifting our focus to the highest quality teams, I would say that the very best teams of the past ten years - and especially the past three - might be just a little better than the best teams from two to three decades ago. I would probably still rank the 2015 Spartans just a bit lower than their older brethren on the famed '98 team. I had always thought the 1986 Hampton Crabbers were the best team I had ever seen Salem play. Until the 2014 Lake Taylor Titans grabbed that honor. And it sounds like Dinwiddie from 2013 might have been even better. But let's keep in mind, judging teams across different eras is nigh on impossible. It's just opinion, much of which is based on memories.
So, there's my answer. IMHO, in the Roanoke area and SW Virginia, and indeed in the entire Commonwealth, the huddled masses have gotten worse. The good news is, those at the top keep finding ways to improve.
Well done Spartan. I would agree the Salem defense appeared to step it up a notch last year. Salem is always so consistent its tough to compare their teams. Heck, most posters think Dinwiddie 2013 team was our best, but I still think the 2009 General team could give them fits.
Personally, I think the talent is watered down in many areas. In the old days you had fewer schools and the talent was more concentrated, so that has played a major role. I realize that may not be true everywhere, but in Henrico County and Chesterfield growth has reduced the level of play in all sports.
Second, the stars always need to line up. Usually, the same teams are always factors, but to win it all you have to avoid injury and occassionally get lucky (dinwiddie vs. Lt 2013). Lt lost its two best qb's that season, but dont be fooled S. Johnson became their starter and we know how good he was. He just wasnt ready in 2013. Same as this year. Salem was darn good and deserved the win, but the LT quarterback layed an egg as well.
Not discounting either champion I promise, because both Dinwiddie and Salem defenses dominated everyone.
Just for fun, I would say the 2012 LT team would likely beat all of the past three champions including LT 2014, but thats just my opinion. All of recent champuonship teams were very good. Could they beat the past state champs? Who knows. Fun debate though.
Personally, I think the talent is watered down in many areas. In the old days you had fewer schools and the talent was more concentrated, so that has played a major role. I realize that may not be true everywhere, but in Henrico County and Chesterfield growth has reduced the level of play in all sports.
Second, the stars always need to line up. Usually, the same teams are always factors, but to win it all you have to avoid injury and occassionally get lucky (dinwiddie vs. Lt 2013). Lt lost its two best qb's that season, but dont be fooled S. Johnson became their starter and we know how good he was. He just wasnt ready in 2013. Same as this year. Salem was darn good and deserved the win, but the LT quarterback layed an egg as well.
Not discounting either champion I promise, because both Dinwiddie and Salem defenses dominated everyone.
Just for fun, I would say the 2012 LT team would likely beat all of the past three champions including LT 2014, but thats just my opinion. All of recent champuonship teams were very good. Could they beat the past state champs? Who knows. Fun debate though.
Spartan of Yore thanks for the opinion and analysis and I agree. Same to you Bleeding Navy as I would also agree. The 2013 LT team is the definite what if. If the top 2 quarterbacks don't get beat up in the opener no telling how that team is thought of and 2012 was obviously good as well. As another aside for you Spartan and, no slight intended to the 1998 Spartan team which was very good, the LT teams(2012-2014) and Dinwiddie 2013 were probably the only times I can remember where I thought a lower classification school was equal or better than the upper classifications(old AAA and current 5A/6A). My personal picks in the discussion over my time watching HS football in Virginia were '71 T. C. Williams, '74 Woodbridge, '81 Hampton, '82 GW Danville, and Curry's Hampton squads. I didn't see them enough either in person or on tape but, solely on record I think I would have a similar opinion of some of the Phoebus squads that won multiple state championships had I seen them more. Looking forward to the next powerhouses to come along and hopefully expand the discussion.
I had a very close and very cold view if 74 Woodbridge. They were very good but Bethel beat them for the states. At one time, Woodbridge was the largest HS in VA. Hard to believe they have only been state runners up twice. I thought (so did many GW coaches) that 1997 Thomas Dale was very good.
The current era teams get a lot more practice. Off season and 7 on 7. Plus you have probably seen every play they have run that season before you play them Also todays team use the whole field. Back in the day you could get game film that had a play cut out and was respliced. You could only view your film with an expensive projector.
This going back a ways, but there were some good teams in 1974. I was only 9 but I remember watching E.C. Glass with Rick Volley. They tied Pulaski 8-8 i believe and EC Glass was ranked nationally, so Bethel and Woodbridge must have been unreal.
My dad hated Glass, but I loved to watch Volley run the ball. He danced like Billy "White Shoes" Johnson. I may be wrong, but I think he played at Ohio State for Woody Hayes.
My dad hated Glass, but I loved to watch Volley run the ball. He danced like Billy "White Shoes" Johnson. I may be wrong, but I think he played at Ohio State for Woody Hayes.
You are right about film. I dreaded the old "run that back", over an over watching myself and teamates fail to execute.
Each time they ran it back the coaches got a little more heated and animated. They would ask what were you thinking?
Dumbest response ever came from our rb Victor Caldwell after being asked the above noted question. " Trying not get killed". We all laughed and the next thing you know we were running hills over and over. Left my share of fluid on the damn hill beside PH.
Each time they ran it back the coaches got a little more heated and animated. They would ask what were you thinking?
Dumbest response ever came from our rb Victor Caldwell after being asked the above noted question. " Trying not get killed". We all laughed and the next thing you know we were running hills over and over. Left my share of fluid on the damn hill beside PH.
Correct that Volley played at Ohio State and he actually was a contributor on the field at OSU. Glass also had another "pretty good" player named Mickey Fitzgerald. Tommy is correct about Bethel winning, I had forgotten that and didn't really see Bethel that year but, that outcome surprised a lot of people with all the names and D-1's Woodbridge had. Big Ten did pretty good in Virginia that year with Russell Davis going to Michigan and Volley to the Buckeyes. The Bear was very close to getting Fitzgerald as well but, Jimmy Sharpe pulled it out in the end.
Only warm place that night was the heated bathrooms. Long bus ride home as well.
Yeah I remember Fitzgerald. Good back a VPI. After watching Sunday morning the Notre Dame replay show with Lindsey Nelson (do to time constraints we move on to further action) they showed Tech highlights. "Fitzgerald on the belly play". Darn i am getting old.
Who was the fullback from Pulaski that played at West Virginia in the 70's or early eighties? Was his name King something?
King Harvey in the 80's I think. Once Dooley got there they added the "sweep style play" to the belly play. ;-)
We went back to the Holiday Inn in Fredericksburg and headed back to Danville Sat am. We had left GW on Thursday morning with a pep rally send off.
Glass and PH fought to a tie in 1974. PH was the defending state champ. GW beat Glass 20-18 in the last game to win the WD. If Glass had made the 2 point conversion, they would have gone to the playoffs The same night Woodbridge beat 9-0 Gar Field to win the Commonwealth. Both games were played before packed home and visitor stands. GW had a lot of people on the end zone hill.
I just checked on Harvey. He played with Oliver Luck (qb) in 1981 and with Jeff Hostetler four three years. Ron Wolfley was the star back and King was the fb. He was a beast and they Pulaski faithful played the Cougar roar when he ran the ball.
Strange no one has mentioned Briar Woods or Broad Run, their 5 year run and the explosion of talented squads in the Loudoun County area. Champe, Woodgrove, Tuscarora (which started 4A) and none of which existed before 2010. BW started around 2007. That BW squad could have beaten anyone this past decade. The Dinwiddies, LTs and Salem's included. Not that they would have but they would have been my #1 choice.
Is my memory fading? I thought GW went 9-2 that year with losses to Woodbridge and PH(38-29?) who was the defending state champ. Your recollection of the Glass/GW game is consistent with mine.
BW was a very good team and could have possibly beaten the ones we are discussing although I very seriously doubt they beat LT. BW might have appeared to be better than they were because they were in reality either a 5A or 6A, depending on an accurate ADM, playing down in 4A. Since being placed in proper classification the sledding has been a little tougher. LT on the other hand has the 2012 5A title to their credit even though they were playing with enrollment numbers that would have allowed them to be in a lower classification. The same with some of the Phoebus squads that were 5A champs in the earlier 2000s.
GW was 8-1 entered the glass game after losing to PH. Glass was 8-0-1. PH and Fleming had very good teams that year and Halifax was pretty decent. It was a loaded district with good coaches and athletes. GW had 4 D-1 recruits an quite a few D-3 including the qb who set passing records at HS under Coach Fulton. Buddy Curry and FC's Pee Wee Board were very good NFL players.
Thanks! See my error now, read your reference to Glass/PH tie as GW/PH, my mistake. GW was a pipeline to HS during Fulton's years there for players not going D-1(Newells, Love, Haleys, Lewis, etc.).
Navy, I think you mean the 2008 Generals? And I disagree. I think the 2013 defense would have stopped everyone on offense, except Morgan. And I don't think Adam could have won it by himself. (And you no how much respect I have for him).
